The Shadow turn discussion

mepbmlist
#1

I think there is an issue being over looked here. There may be a
reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf, for
that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As long
as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his last
turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no reason in
the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.

It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal, however
you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information. You
have the opportunity to see that information because they trust you
and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are not
communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to ME
Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account funded,
Clint should not get involved in sending out information.

As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games charges
me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME games
has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress in a
timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our turns
in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a service,
it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone their
complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint about
player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to resolve
the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as that
player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is his
choice as to who in the game he works with.

Brad

#2

I don't believe anyone blames Clint & Co if Player X doesn't
submit his turns. I think your argument here is off base.

Check the House Rules (I did after the previous discussion.. :wink:

Shadow Turns are allowed upon reasonable requests. Don't abuse
it, ie don't freak out if your ally hasn't "reported in" within
5 hours...but I think all reasonable people will generally agree
that MEGame's interpretation of "reasonable" is quite reasonable.

Check the House Rules. If a player does not want their personal
contact information OR their turn information forwarded on either
the Front Sheet or within the context of a Shadow Turn request,
they have to specifically request this Service. And yes, it is a
Service. The company has clearly stated policies, AND they have
this out for those players if the so desire. Fair and reasonable
for all.

So confront your points: If the player has a reason, then he
has the opportunity to be personally responsible and make prior
arrangements with the company, as per the Rules. Similar if he
"doesn't trust you"...which I personally find absurd.

As for the Free Service discussion: I believe, as per the House
Rules, that if you DID NOT recieve your pdf, the Company graciously
grants you the credit of honesty...and will provide you with a
Free copy of your pdf. This is the Next Day, mind you, not same
day "I usually get them by 10 and it's now 1!" IF you insist on
same day, you pay. Simple and reasonable, I think. Frustrating,
as we ALL want our turns run easily Days before they actually are,
but in the 1/1000 times it "may" happen, yes, quite reasonable.

And to sum up, yes, as long as Player X is meeting his obligations,
he gets to play...within the rules, as do the rest of us.

Brad Canuck

--- kingoftherill <kingoftherill@yahoo.com> wrote: > I think there is
an issue being over looked here. There may be a

···

reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf, for
that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As long

as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his last

turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no reason in

the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.

It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal, however
you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information. You
have the opportunity to see that information because they trust you
and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are not
communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to ME
Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account funded,
Clint should not get involved in sending out information.

As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games charges
me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME games
has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress in a
timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our turns
in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a service,

it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone their

complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint about
player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to resolve
the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as that
player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is his
choice as to who in the game he works with.

Brad

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#3

There may be a reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
player x. It may be intentional.

*** I often get in touch with players who are incommunicado - they are often thankful that I have reminded them and thankful that other players have been able to put a turn in for them. If the game was more individualistic (say like Legends or Serim Ral) then the impact a player has on the game (and player's enjoyment) is minimal - in ME it's much, much more.

For Clint to send out a pdf, for
that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As long
as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his last
turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no reason in
the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.

*** Um I don't agree - sorry. I think that is more damaging to the game and players generally like it. I do allow players to specifically inform me that they do not want their turns sent out. I think 1 player has chosen that option, once. Many things on an individual basis are negotiable but I try to set general rules that we go by.

If they don't trust you and thus are not
communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to ME

*** Often they won't get a turn in in that situation. A high enough proportion of players who have gone quiet will not get their turn in - and it's mostly not due to team antagonism - it could be illness, lack of time, moving house, new job (I've listed most of the common reasons but there are many others).

Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account funded,

*** What if they are not - or not about to - a stitch in time....

As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games charges
me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it.

*** Not the case - check the HR on where we charge and where we do not.

Now they may voice their complaint about
player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to resolve
the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as that
player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is his
choice as to who in the game he works with.

*** We try to find a middle ground that benefits us and the players.

Clint

#4

I didn't say that. I said they get peed off. Getting peed off with the game means people drop. If Clint, and players can avoid that by managing a contingency order, then both the company and the players benefit.

The rest of what you say about the player maybe _wanting_ not to communicate and not to put a turn is flawed because you overlook the precedent, which as far as I know, ME has had at least since the GAD games days, of players being asked to inform the GM early if they are going to drop so that a replacement player may be found. That, I'd suggest is the standard which should be expected from all players, and the shadow turn should only be asked for, and issued where there is suspicion that there is going to be a silent drop.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 14:37 15/05/2003, kingoftherill wrote:

Players who get peed off at Clint
because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
looking in the wrong direction to place their picque.

#5

Brad; I guess I was not clear enough. As a player I want to decide
who sees my pdf. If I am submitting my turns and paying my fees, then
Clint should not in any circumstance send my pdf to any other player
no matter how freaked out they are.

As for trust, I don't mean that is the personal trust way. I mean it
in that they feel there is a reason not to provide you information.
They may feel you have a security problem, which we did in Game 71
over a year ago, when the enemy was reading our team email because
one of our players was careless enough that he was sending it to a
member on the other team. Honest mistake or not the enemy did take
advantage of that knowlege and it cost one of our players characters.
That breach of trust in that I trust that you will protect my
information impacted that game from their on.

I agree with you that the sharing of information makes the game
better for all involved. However there are some who either want to
play on their own for whatever reasons and that should be their right
as long as they play by the house rules at least that is my opinion.
So unless the player missed his last turn and was special serviced I
don't think Clint and company should ever provide the pdf, unless the
player in question is asked for and gives his permission.

American Brad;-)

I don't believe anyone blames Clint & Co if Player X doesn't
submit his turns. I think your argument here is off base.

Check the House Rules (I did after the previous discussion.. :wink:

Shadow Turns are allowed upon reasonable requests. Don't abuse
it, ie don't freak out if your ally hasn't "reported in" within
5 hours...but I think all reasonable people will generally agree
that MEGame's interpretation of "reasonable" is quite reasonable.

Check the House Rules. If a player does not want their personal
contact information OR their turn information forwarded on either
the Front Sheet or within the context of a Shadow Turn request,
they have to specifically request this Service. And yes, it is a
Service. The company has clearly stated policies, AND they have
this out for those players if the so desire. Fair and reasonable
for all.

So confront your points: If the player has a reason, then he
has the opportunity to be personally responsible and make prior
arrangements with the company, as per the Rules. Similar if he
"doesn't trust you"...which I personally find absurd.

As for the Free Service discussion: I believe, as per the House
Rules, that if you DID NOT recieve your pdf, the Company graciously
grants you the credit of honesty...and will provide you with a
Free copy of your pdf. This is the Next Day, mind you, not same
day "I usually get them by 10 and it's now 1!" IF you insist on
same day, you pay. Simple and reasonable, I think. Frustrating,
as we ALL want our turns run easily Days before they actually are,
but in the 1/1000 times it "may" happen, yes, quite reasonable.

And to sum up, yes, as long as Player X is meeting his obligations,
he gets to play...within the rules, as do the rest of us.

Brad Canuck

--- kingoftherill <kingoftherill@y...> wrote: > I think there is
an issue being over looked here. There may be a
> reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
> player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf, for
> that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
> that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As

long

>
> as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his

last

>
> turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no

reason in

>
> the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.
>
> It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
> cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal,

however

> you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information.

You

> have the opportunity to see that information because they trust

you

> and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are

not

> communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
> planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to

ME

> Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account

funded,

> Clint should not get involved in sending out information.
>
> As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games

charges

> me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME

games

> has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress in

a

> timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our

turns

> in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
> orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a

service,

>
> it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
> because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
> looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone

their

>
> complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint

about

> player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to

resolve

> the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as

that

> player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is

his

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, bgb <pbmnoot@y...> wrote:

> choice as to who in the game he works with.
>
> Brad
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
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#6

Sorry Laurence; I must learn to write more precisely.

If the player is doing a silent drop that is a different matter, than
what I felt was being advocated. To me they are two different beasts.
If I have a real life crisis and miss my turn, but am still in the
game I can notify you, or Clint that it was an unavoidable situation,
Clint can still send me my special serviced turn which I can share
with you. If my turn is late and for whatever reason you haven't
heard from me then Clint can say yes we received Brad's orders but
too late to process them, we have special serviced Brad. In neither
case should they send out my pdf to you without my permission. If I
am churlishly trying to screw you and my other team mates by not
sending in orders and not communicating with either you or Clint then
there has been some pretty severe falling out on our team and you're
probably already aware of that, and should be taking measures to
minimize the effects of that rift. Clint still should not intervene
by sending out my pdf to you as the second special serviced turn I
will be dropped anyway and hopefully you will get someone easier to
work with as a replacement player or you can take over the position
yourself.

Like Ovatha says in any large organization you are going to have the
occasional personality clash. It must be worked around or better yet
solved. It should not have God intervene. You have my personal email,
we have common experience with this situation and I'll be happy to
discuss it with you one on one if you like. For the group however
this is my position Clints hand into the internal relations of a game
is a mistake.

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence G. Tilley"
<laurence@l...> wrote:

>Players who get peed off at Clint
>because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
>looking in the wrong direction to place their picque.

I didn't say that. I said they get peed off. Getting peed off

with the

game means people drop. If Clint, and players can avoid that by

managing a

contingency order, then both the company and the players benefit.

The rest of what you say about the player maybe _wanting_ not to
communicate and not to put a turn is flawed because you overlook

the

precedent, which as far as I know, ME has had at least since the

GAD games

days, of players being asked to inform the GM early if they are

going to

drop so that a replacement player may be found. That, I'd suggest

is the

standard which should be expected from all players, and the shadow

turn

should only be asked for, and issued where there is suspicion that

there is

···

At 14:37 15/05/2003, kingoftherill wrote:
going to be a silent drop.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

#7

PDF sharing:

As I read it, currently it works like this: PDFs are shared between
teammates by Clint if a teammate asks for it (and dont abuse it).
Furthermore a player can specificly ask Clint not to share his PDFs to
teammates in a game.

Now, where is the problem?

If all this talk is all about what should be the default method, my vote
goes to sharing between teammates unless specificed otherwise by the
player - as the system works now.

Shadow turn:

A player not doing his turn is much more destructive to the game and one
special service turn can ruin the entire game if the turn was important
enough. I dont see any issues with having this opion ON by default as well.
There can be a lot of reasons a player doesnt make his turn, and I dont see
why this game should be the most important thing of a persons life. So if
one player chooses do something else, I think its ok that the rest of his
team can at least do a shadowturn to save their game untill they can find a
replacement or something. If the player is intent on doing Nothing, he could
just send in his orders where he does nothing - shadoworders only works if
the player doesnt send in anything.

Brian

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----

···

Fra: kingoftherill [mailto:kingoftherill@yahoo.com]
Sendt: 15. maj 2003 18:32
Til: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [mepbmlist] Re: The Shadow turn discussion

Brad; I guess I was not clear enough. As a player I want to decide
who sees my pdf. If I am submitting my turns and paying my fees, then
Clint should not in any circumstance send my pdf to any other player
no matter how freaked out they are.

As for trust, I don't mean that is the personal trust way. I mean it
in that they feel there is a reason not to provide you information.
They may feel you have a security problem, which we did in Game 71
over a year ago, when the enemy was reading our team email because
one of our players was careless enough that he was sending it to a
member on the other team. Honest mistake or not the enemy did take
advantage of that knowlege and it cost one of our players characters.
That breach of trust in that I trust that you will protect my
information impacted that game from their on.

I agree with you that the sharing of information makes the game
better for all involved. However there are some who either want to
play on their own for whatever reasons and that should be their right
as long as they play by the house rules at least that is my opinion.
So unless the player missed his last turn and was special serviced I
don't think Clint and company should ever provide the pdf, unless the
player in question is asked for and gives his permission.

American Brad;-)

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, bgb <pbmnoot@y...> wrote:

I don't believe anyone blames Clint & Co if Player X doesn't
submit his turns. I think your argument here is off base.

Check the House Rules (I did after the previous discussion.. :wink:

Shadow Turns are allowed upon reasonable requests. Don't abuse
it, ie don't freak out if your ally hasn't "reported in" within
5 hours...but I think all reasonable people will generally agree
that MEGame's interpretation of "reasonable" is quite reasonable.

Check the House Rules. If a player does not want their personal
contact information OR their turn information forwarded on either
the Front Sheet or within the context of a Shadow Turn request,
they have to specifically request this Service. And yes, it is a
Service. The company has clearly stated policies, AND they have
this out for those players if the so desire. Fair and reasonable
for all.

So confront your points: If the player has a reason, then he
has the opportunity to be personally responsible and make prior
arrangements with the company, as per the Rules. Similar if he
"doesn't trust you"...which I personally find absurd.

As for the Free Service discussion: I believe, as per the House
Rules, that if you DID NOT recieve your pdf, the Company graciously
grants you the credit of honesty...and will provide you with a
Free copy of your pdf. This is the Next Day, mind you, not same
day "I usually get them by 10 and it's now 1!" IF you insist on
same day, you pay. Simple and reasonable, I think. Frustrating,
as we ALL want our turns run easily Days before they actually are,
but in the 1/1000 times it "may" happen, yes, quite reasonable.

And to sum up, yes, as long as Player X is meeting his obligations,
he gets to play...within the rules, as do the rest of us.

Brad Canuck

--- kingoftherill <kingoftherill@y...> wrote: > I think there is
an issue being over looked here. There may be a
> reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
> player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf, for
> that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
> that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As

long

>
> as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his

last

>
> turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no

reason in

>
> the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.
>
> It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
> cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal,

however

> you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information.

You

> have the opportunity to see that information because they trust

you

> and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are

not

> communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
> planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to

ME

> Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account

funded,

> Clint should not get involved in sending out information.
>
> As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games

charges

> me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME

games

> has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress in

a

> timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our

turns

> in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
> orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a

service,

>
> it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
> because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
> looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone

their

>
> complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint

about

> player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to

resolve

> the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as

that

> player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is

his

> choice as to who in the game he works with.
>
> Brad
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

______________________________________________________________________

Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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#8

Brian; with Clint's comments there is not problem you are correct. I
as a player simply notify Clint that I do not want my pdf sent to
anyone, and do not want shadow turns run on my behalf as long as my
account is current. That ends it right there. With Clint's disclosure
of the option to opt out of shadow turns I suspect that more than the
one person at one time in the past will opt for this option rather
than have the possibility of his pdf being forwarded without his
knowlege.

Brad

-- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Peter Thorsbro"
<claudius@u...> wrote:

PDF sharing:

As I read it, currently it works like this: PDFs are shared between
teammates by Clint if a teammate asks for it (and dont abuse it).
Furthermore a player can specificly ask Clint not to share his PDFs

to

teammates in a game.

Now, where is the problem?

If all this talk is all about what should be the default method, my

vote

goes to sharing between teammates unless specificed otherwise by the
player - as the system works now.

Shadow turn:

A player not doing his turn is much more destructive to the game

and one

special service turn can ruin the entire game if the turn was

important

enough. I dont see any issues with having this opion ON by default

as well.

There can be a lot of reasons a player doesnt make his turn, and I

dont see

why this game should be the most important thing of a persons life.

So if

one player chooses do something else, I think its ok that the rest

of his

team can at least do a shadowturn to save their game untill they

can find a

replacement or something. If the player is intent on doing Nothing,

he could

just send in his orders where he does nothing - shadoworders only

works if

the player doesnt send in anything.

Brian

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: kingoftherill [mailto:kingoftherill@y…]
Sendt: 15. maj 2003 18:32
Til: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [mepbmlist] Re: The Shadow turn discussion

Brad; I guess I was not clear enough. As a player I want to decide
who sees my pdf. If I am submitting my turns and paying my fees,

then

Clint should not in any circumstance send my pdf to any other player
no matter how freaked out they are.

As for trust, I don't mean that is the personal trust way. I mean it
in that they feel there is a reason not to provide you information.
They may feel you have a security problem, which we did in Game 71
over a year ago, when the enemy was reading our team email because
one of our players was careless enough that he was sending it to a
member on the other team. Honest mistake or not the enemy did take
advantage of that knowlege and it cost one of our players

characters.

That breach of trust in that I trust that you will protect my
information impacted that game from their on.

I agree with you that the sharing of information makes the game
better for all involved. However there are some who either want to
play on their own for whatever reasons and that should be their

right

as long as they play by the house rules at least that is my opinion.
So unless the player missed his last turn and was special serviced I
don't think Clint and company should ever provide the pdf, unless

the

player in question is asked for and gives his permission.

American Brad;-)

> I don't believe anyone blames Clint & Co if Player X doesn't
> submit his turns. I think your argument here is off base.
>
> Check the House Rules (I did after the previous discussion.. :wink:
>
> Shadow Turns are allowed upon reasonable requests. Don't abuse
> it, ie don't freak out if your ally hasn't "reported in" within
> 5 hours...but I think all reasonable people will generally agree
> that MEGame's interpretation of "reasonable" is quite reasonable.
>
> Check the House Rules. If a player does not want their personal
> contact information OR their turn information forwarded on either
> the Front Sheet or within the context of a Shadow Turn request,
> they have to specifically request this Service. And yes, it is a
> Service. The company has clearly stated policies, AND they have
> this out for those players if the so desire. Fair and reasonable
> for all.
>
> So confront your points: If the player has a reason, then he
> has the opportunity to be personally responsible and make prior
> arrangements with the company, as per the Rules. Similar if he
> "doesn't trust you"...which I personally find absurd.
>
> As for the Free Service discussion: I believe, as per the House
> Rules, that if you DID NOT recieve your pdf, the Company

graciously

> grants you the credit of honesty...and will provide you with a
> Free copy of your pdf. This is the Next Day, mind you, not same
> day "I usually get them by 10 and it's now 1!" IF you insist on
> same day, you pay. Simple and reasonable, I think. Frustrating,
> as we ALL want our turns run easily Days before they actually are,
> but in the 1/1000 times it "may" happen, yes, quite reasonable.
>
> And to sum up, yes, as long as Player X is meeting his

obligations,

> he gets to play...within the rules, as do the rest of us.
>
> Brad Canuck
>
>
>
>
> --- kingoftherill <kingoftherill@y...> wrote: > I think there is
> an issue being over looked here. There may be a
> > reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
> > player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf,

for

> > that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders

for

> > that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As
long
> >
> > as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his
last
> >
> > turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no
reason in
> >
> > the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.
> >
> > It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
> > cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal,
however
> > you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information.
You
> > have the opportunity to see that information because they trust
you
> > and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are
not
> > communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
> > planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to
ME
> > Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account
funded,
> > Clint should not get involved in sending out information.
> >
> > As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games
charges
> > me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME
games
> > has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress

in

a
> > timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our
turns
> > in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
> > orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a
service,
> >
> > it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
> > because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately

are

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, bgb <pbmnoot@y...> wrote:
> > looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone
their
> >
> > complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint
about
> > player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to
resolve
> > the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as
that
> > player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is
his
> > choice as to who in the game he works with.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
> > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

______________________________________________________________________

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#9

I think there is an issue being over looked here. There may be a
  reason that you haven't received communication from the missing
  player x. It may be intentional. For Clint to send out a pdf, for
  that player to you and allow you to submit contingency orders for
  that nation without that nations players permission is wrong. As long
  as that player has his account up to date and has not missed his last
  turns orders and thus had been special serviced there is no reason in
  the world for Clint to get involved in such a situation.

  It obviously makes for a better game when everyone on a team
  cooperates, shares information and works for a common goal, however
  you do not have a right to see anyone elses nation information. You
  have the opportunity to see that information because they trust you
  and wish to work with you. If they don't trust you and thus are not
  communicating with you it certainly is a problem in your teams
  planning but as long as they are fullfilling their obligation to ME
  Games ie submitting turns on time and keeping their account funded,
  Clint should not get involved in sending out information.

  As for the free service discussion, I believe that ME games charges
  me to send me a copy of my pdf if I report I didn't get it. ME games
  has the obligation to process the orders for games in progress in a
  timely matter. We as players have the obligation to submit our turns
  in a timely matter and not wait until the last moment to get our
  orders in. Doing a Shadow turn is not providing Clint with a service,
  it is helping you not Clint. Players who get peed off at Clint
  because player x misses his turn accidentally or deliberately are
  looking in the wrong direction to place their picque. If anyone their
  complaint is with player x. Now they may voice their complaint about
  player x to Clint and he can then get involved in trying to resolve
  the impasse between the players if there is one, but as long as that
  player is meeting his obligations to the moderator I feel it is his
  choice as to who in the game he works with.

  Brad
  RD: This brings us back to the issue of which is more important, the freedom of one individual loose cannon to f*** things up for the whole team by talking to nobody whilst still paying his subs, or the enjoyment of the great majority who want to play as a team.

  Dump the loose cannon I say. Middle-earth and indeed the whole pbm hobby are better off losing him, than losing team-spirited players who might be driven to quit by the loose cannon's anti-social behaviour.

  Richard.

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: kingoftherill
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:37 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] The Shadow turn discussion

#10

If you want that please contact me off list and I can arrange it. I would advise you that you should inform your team-mates there as well so that they can be aware and make arrangements.

Clint

···

Brian; with Clint's comments there is not problem you are correct. I
as a player simply notify Clint that I do not want my pdf sent to
anyone, and do not want shadow turns run on my behalf as long as my
account is current. That ends it right there. With Clint's disclosure
of the option to opt out of shadow turns I suspect that more than the
one person at one time in the past will opt for this option rather
than have the possibility of his pdf being forwarded without his
knowlege.

Brad