Thoughts on players attacking team-mates

mepbmlist
#1

Harley is greatly superior to GSI or Deft EXCEPT in one respect. They never injected the "machinery of God" into the game and Harley someimes does. Stay out of "family" squabbles.

Here is a concrete example: In game 71 there is a fissure between North American and European players on one side. Relations got worse. The Europeans have engaged in an astonishing round of insults. I mean really bad, the sort of things a gentleman wouldn't say about his sister's rapist. To make it worse they deliberately made the insults known to the opposing side as well as provided the opposition with very valuable intelligence information. This is an "indirect hurting". Harley would have no way of knowing this and the "machinery of God" would not be involved.

If I was in the position of the Yank players in game 71 I know what I would do. I would retire my armies and attack the "real" enemies. The ones who insulted me and sabotaged my game play with leaks to the enemy. Now Harley might see this, Should Harley intervene? No. Let this be a learning experience for all concerned.

···

From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [mepbmlist] Thoughts on players attacking team-mates
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:02:21 +0100

What do players think about this? Should we step in and if so at what
point?

Clint
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#2

Harley is greatly superior to GSI or Deft EXCEPT in one respect. They

never

injected the "machinery of God" into the game and Harley someimes does.

Stay

out of "family" squabbles.

Here is a concrete example: In game 71 there is a fissure between North
American and European players on one side. Relations got worse. The
Europeans have engaged in an astonishing round of insults. I mean really
bad, the sort of things a gentleman wouldn't say about his sister's

rapist.

To make it worse they deliberately made the insults known to the opposing
side as well as provided the opposition with very valuable intelligence
information. This is an "indirect hurting". Harley would have no way of
knowing this and the "machinery of God" would not be involved.

If I was in the position of the Yank players in game 71 I know what I

would

do. I would retire my armies and attack the "real" enemies. The ones who
insulted me and sabotaged my game play with leaks to the enemy. Now

Harley

might see this, Should Harley intervene? No. Let this be a learning
experience for all concerned.

RD: Regrettably, I've seen this kind of thing before. If a player starts
verbally abusing another on his team, his team-mates have two options:
1) report him to Harle, forwarding a copy of the offending email. Harle
have certainly threatened to kick a player out of ME for this kind of
behaviour. Whether they actually did so, I'm not sure.
2) avoid playing with the guy in future. If he shows up on your team at
startup, just tell Harle either he goes or you do. There's always going to
be another game you can join.

Please don't tar all Europeans with the same brush. Some us are quite
civilized!

Richard.

···

>From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Thoughts on players attacking team-mates
>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:02:21 +0100
>
>What do players think about this? Should we step in and if so at what
>point?
>
>Clint
>****************************************************************
> Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
>pbm@harlequingames.com me@middleearthgames.com
> www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com
>
> 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
> Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
> Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
>****************************************************************
> Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
> CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
> Battle of the Planets - Exile
>
>

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#3

This is such a sticky problem. Bear with me.
1) Each person pays their money, each person should get to play the way they
want. You are not buying into a love fest, you are buying into a war. Its a
game, but, nonetheless, a wargame. If the Wood Elves want to stick it to the
dwarves, so be it. If the Fire King wants Barad-Dur, go for it. The problem
is that I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't have a ton of
dough in my pockets to throw at games. If this was free, I guess "who
cares". Its not. It costs money.
2) Therefor, I question, is there a line that should not be crossed? In a
specific game -
  a) One player signed up as two nations under different names. He had
another
     friend who joined up as a Free Peoples.
  b) Additionally, another friend of his signed up in a Neutral position(!).
  c) When the Neutral was not getting what he wanted out of the FP's, the FP
player
     retired all his stuff, etc. Also sent all our turns to the DS. Also, his
FP
     friend did the same. Blech.
  d) Harley caught this and asked us remaining what we wanted to do... I
appreciated
     this. I got waxed a couple of turns later, but fair and square (Curse
you Ji! grin).
3) Now in a different game, the Rangers assassinated Galadriel because the
Ranger had "Most Artifacts" and "Most Ritual Kills" or some such as victory
conditions. Still VERY stupid. However, there is a difference between 2 and
3. In 2, there is nothing at work but malice and cheating (Signing up for 2
positions, Signing up a FP and a Neutral, etc.). In 3, the Malice seems to
be missing, and by Malice I mean the overt desire to completely ruin the
entire game.

4) Thus, I think I'm saying the following rule:

"If Harley detects actual Malice, Harley should consider intervening. If
Harley does not detect actual Malice, Harley should keep their noses out of
it."

Again: Malice is an evidenced overt desire by a player to completely ruin
the entire game.
I think this is a high standard to meet, and one which is fact sensitive.
For example, I can CERTAINLY be in a position to go "scorched earth". For
example, the DS is attacking and I have NO HOPE of even putting up a
feasable defense. My dwarves would rather collapse the mines and get
'retired' rather than become Ji fodder and give the DS new bases of
operation. Also, if I screw up and send 10000 gold to the enemy, EGAD, but
thats an error, not malice. Very dicey.

However, Harley is the GAME MASTER or REFEREE or other officious name. This
means they RUN THE GAME. They NEED to be able to intervene or they are
nothing more than scribes.

There ya go! My diatribe on the subject.
Later,
Jeff

#4

It's not that difficult to look for malice or detect it. We've done this
lots of times and are prepared to investigate before making a ruling. At
present I get the feeling that the players 3/5s don't want us to interfere
even in blatant abuse. I think that this is really bad for the game. When
players are affected by such unsportsmanlike behaviour they drop big time,
regularly taking players with them (whole teams).

That's my experience as well both as a GM and player of many years. It
generally leaves a very bad taste in the players mouths - including the
opposition (when no unfair influence has been brought to bear) and is a
prime reason that players leave the game and never come back.

As a player I generally try to draw a line between in game and out of game.
I try not to let the out of game interfere with the in-game.

I see some players fly off the handle and get very emotional about the game
and then seek vengeance for some implied insult out of the game.

So that's why, in very rare, and they are very rare circumstances I would
like to stop such flagrant orders. (Note in the VP hunt I don't mind it - I
think it's a bad part of the game but that's okay. I spefically am not
talking about that part of the game.) If you have a problem with a player
on your team please contact me and I will attempt to sort it out - and often
do - before it becomes a major problem.

Further thoughts welcome.

Clint

"If Harley detects actual Malice, Harley should consider intervening. If
Harley does not detect actual Malice, Harley should keep their noses out

of

···

it."

#5

It's not that difficult to look for malice or detect it. We've done this
lots of times and are prepared to investigate before making a ruling. At
present I get the feeling that the players 3/5s don't want us to interfere
even in blatant abuse. I think that this is really bad for the game.

When

players are affected by such unsportsmanlike behaviour they drop big time,
regularly taking players with them (whole teams).

That's my experience as well both as a GM and player of many years. It
generally leaves a very bad taste in the players mouths - including the
opposition (when no unfair influence has been brought to bear) and is a
prime reason that players leave the game and never come back.

As a player I generally try to draw a line between in game and out of

game.

I try not to let the out of game interfere with the in-game.

I see some players fly off the handle and get very emotional about the

game

and then seek vengeance for some implied insult out of the game.

So that's why, in very rare, and they are very rare circumstances I would
like to stop such flagrant orders. (Note in the VP hunt I don't mind it -

I

think it's a bad part of the game but that's okay. I spefically am not
talking about that part of the game.) If you have a problem with a player
on your team please contact me and I will attempt to sort it out - and

often

do - before it becomes a major problem.

Further thoughts welcome.

Clint

RD: Fine with me,

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] A proposed Rule on Player attacks...

> "If Harley detects actual Malice, Harley should consider intervening. If
> Harley does not detect actual Malice, Harley should keep their noses out
of
> it."
>

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#6

This can get a little tricky, no? I once prepared to End-Game an
ally because he deserved it, quite frankly. I even forwarded
pdf's to the enemy requesting their help. My team in that game
decided to concede, so it never played out..but...where would
you draw the line?

I'll give you the example. The nation was Dwarves, the game
incidental:

No communcation, no coordination whatsoever. By the 20th turn,
Bain with all his artifacts was influencing his own pop on
various camps around ME, while his emissaries were improving them.
He had 3 major towns in the Iron Hills, all with castles. He
had named 3 mages over the course of that time. His agents were
over 70 and guarding his capital....

Obviously, this was either a newbie who hadn't a clue, or a friend
of the DS...not likely. Some of us, using various communication
styles, tried at various times to get him in the game, to no avail.

What would the company have done here, as WE had a "problem" with
a teammate? As NG and Eo burned, the Dwarves lack of action could
very well have been interpreted as malicious!

Curiously Yours,

Brad B

···

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

If you have a problem with a player on your team please
contact me and I will attempt to sort it out.

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#7

> If you have a problem with a player on your team please
> contact me and I will attempt to sort it out.

This can get a little tricky, no? I once prepared to End-Game an
ally because he deserved it, quite frankly. I even forwarded
pdf's to the enemy requesting their help. My team in that game
decided to concede, so it never played out..but...where would
you draw the line?

I'll give you the example. The nation was Dwarves, the game
incidental:

No communcation, no coordination whatsoever. By the 20th turn,
Bain with all his artifacts was influencing his own pop on
various camps around ME, while his emissaries were improving them.
He had 3 major towns in the Iron Hills, all with castles. He
had named 3 mages over the course of that time. His agents were
over 70 and guarding his capital....

Obviously, this was either a newbie who hadn't a clue, or a friend
of the DS...not likely. Some of us, using various communication
styles, tried at various times to get him in the game, to no avail.

What would the company have done here, as WE had a "problem" with
a teammate? As NG and Eo burned, the Dwarves lack of action could
very well have been interpreted as malicious!

Curiously Yours,

Brad B

RD: Either malicious or ignorant, it doesn't really matter, we team players
do NOT want guys like this in our game. Harle should chuck him out and
issue a refund for any outstanding turns. Guys who play like this rarely if
ever come back for another game anyway - it obviously is not suited to their
style - so getting rid of them early does everybody a favour.

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Player" <pbmnoot@yahoo.ca>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] A proposed Rule on Player attacks...

--- Middle Earth PBM Games <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

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#8

That's in the end-game - not such a problem then - that's not the issue
then. When you are fighting over VPs that is part of the game I feel.

> If you have a problem with a player on your team please
> contact me and I will attempt to sort it out.

This can get a little tricky, no? I once prepared to End-Game an
ally because he deserved it, quite frankly. I even forwarded
pdf's to the enemy requesting their help. My team in that game
decided to concede, so it never played out..but...where would
you draw the line?

I'll give you the example. The nation was Dwarves, the game
incidental:

No communcation, no coordination whatsoever. By the 20th turn,
Bain with all his artifacts was influencing his own pop on
various camps around ME, while his emissaries were improving them.
He had 3 major towns in the Iron Hills, all with castles. He
had named 3 mages over the course of that time. His agents were
over 70 and guarding his capital....

Ask me and I contact them - then if they fail to answer take appropriate
action if you feel that they are deliberately playing against the team. If
they are playing for their own individual win at the end stage then take
action as you want. This is not the issue I brought up earlier.

Clint

#9

There's part of why it's difficult, a dual role. There's no problem as long as they don't confuse the role of referee with that of rules compiler.

Within a single game, the GM acts as referee. His primary job is to see that the game is fair, his secondary job is to see that it is fun. HOWEVER the first responsibility should take precedence over the second whenever there is a conflict. So if a player wants to destroy his position or attack his enemies, then he should be allowed to do so. Neither of those actions are excluded from the rules. The referee has to apply the rules impartially, even if the play of one is spoiling the fun.

Outside the game, Harlequin act as rules compiler, and I have to say that they do that in the best possible way - fairly democratically. It's OUR game, it doesn't matter who hold's the license, it's the goodwill of the players that make it worth the license existing. If a rule is changed to say that you can't attack your own side, or you can't retire more than one character per turn etc then fine, as long as the rule is not changed in the middle of a game.

"Malice" is tricky, as it's hard to define. I've seen vendetta's against known players from other games carry on, but sometimes it's jovial "love to hate" play rather than malice proper. If a grieved player decides to damage the chances of his team, who's to judge him and say that it's malice and not righteous indignation?

"Verbal Abuse" is another one that's tricky. I was falsely accused of this once, and it's not nice. The player made a series of utterly atrocious moves, against advice, deeply damaging the team's chance of success, and I told him what I thought of his play, in no uncertain terms. He couldn't take the criticism and complained to the GM, making out that my criticism of his play was an assault on his person. In another game I dropped, because I felt a player was giving me verbal abuse - I considered it unwarranted, deeply personal, and that it used vocabulary beyond any that I find personally acceptable. BUT I don't feel that the GM can, or should try to help here. He's not the teacher on the playground. What is "Abuse" varies from person to person. I have met some VERY sensitive flowers over the years, if we accept what some consider "abuse" to be the definition, then we would all be treading on egg shells all of the time. If you are abused yourself, you have options:
- Challenge the player to explain himself, and tell him how he makes you feel (almost always the best first option)
- Tell the rest of the team, and see how many of them agree that you've been "abused", and see if they can police the situation internally
- Block the guy's e-mails so you don't have to read them.
- Drop, and tell Harlequin that you don't want to play with him again.
But don't go whinging and whining to the GM. All that can ever result is an extended debate of who said what to whom, and in what context, old e-mails etc.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 01:28 PM 22-10-01, Jeffery A. Dobberpuhl wrote:

"If Harley detects actual Malice, Harley should consider intervening. If
Harley does not detect actual Malice, Harley should keep their noses out of
it."

However, Harley is the GAME MASTER or REFEREE or other officious name. This
means they RUN THE GAME. They NEED to be able to intervene or they are
nothing more than scribes.

#10

Hi,
   As a member of the team you describe in game 71, I should point
out that what you describe is factually incorrect. There is no
European vs. American divide. There are 3 players on our team who
have fallen out & are not cooperating with each other. They do happen
to be divided by continent but the rest of the team have not had any
problems. I would prefer this had not happened but I guess
personalities sometimes clash. They are cooperating with the rest of
the team so we are managing the situation. The rest of the team
includes European & American players.
   The leak of information to the Free was not deliberate either &
did not come from any of the players in dispute. One of our team
accidentally added an address from another game to the distribution
list for his messages & unfortunately this included a member of the
Free team. This sort of error is not exactly unknown on this mailing
list either is it? The Free team would appear to have made use of the
information for a few turns before 'fessing up! This caused the
suspicion that information was being deliberately leaked to the Free
by one of the players already in dispute which as you can imagine did
not help to improve relations!
  Apologies for boring anyone not interested in this subject but I
thought I should set the record straight.

Ian Harris
ME71 Ice King

--- In mepbmlist@y..., "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@h...> wrote:

Harley is greatly superior to GSI or Deft EXCEPT in one respect.

They never

injected the "machinery of God" into the game and Harley someimes

does. Stay

out of "family" squabbles.

Here is a concrete example: In game 71 there is a fissure between

North

American and European players on one side. Relations got worse.

The

Europeans have engaged in an astonishing round of insults. I mean

really

bad, the sort of things a gentleman wouldn't say about his sister's

rapist.

To make it worse they deliberately made the insults known to the

opposing

side as well as provided the opposition with very valuable

intelligence

information. This is an "indirect hurting". Harley would have no

way of

knowing this and the "machinery of God" would not be involved.

If I was in the position of the Yank players in game 71 I know what

I would

do. I would retire my armies and attack the "real" enemies. The

ones who

insulted me and sabotaged my game play with leaks to the enemy.

Now Harley

might see this, Should Harley intervene? No. Let this be a

learning

experience for all concerned.

>From: "Middle Earth PBM Games" <me@M...>
>Reply-To: mepbmlist@y...
>To: "mepbmlist" <mepbmlist@y...>
>Subject: [mepbmlist] Thoughts on players attacking team-mates
>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:02:21 +0100
>
>What do players think about this? Should we step in and if so at

what

>point?
>
>Clint
>****************************************************************
> Harlequin Games Middle Earth Games
>pbm@h... me@m...
> www.harlequingames.com www.middleearthgames.com
>
> 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
> Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
> Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours
>****************************************************************
> Middle Earth - Legends - Serim Ral
> CTF 2187 - Starquest - Crack of Doom
> Battle of the Planets - Exile
>
>

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