Upcoming NKA -- Proposal

Hi Everyone,

There’s an NKA variant of Fourth Age forming, about half-full I guess. NKA stands for No Killing or Assassination, i.e. orders 620 and 615 are not allowed, invented by yours truly back in the 1990’s. If you are tired of having FA games ended by game 20, or at least the military aspect of the game made insignificant, please come play!

That said, for those who are signed up and do sign up, I have a proposal. Much of the nation setup for Fourth Age puts limits on agent power because of how deadly assassins are, but in NKA it seems appropriate to change them.

So I suggest that the NKA variant be modified in nation design as follows:
Starting Characters:

A. Cost in points for agent rank for initial characters changed to be the same as emissaries, and 60-pt agents allowed.

B. Non-human races pay 600 less for their first 60-pt agent, rather than just a 50-pt agent.

C. SNA costs altered as followed
#1. Double-Scouting SNA reduced to 6000.
#11. New Agents at 40 SNA reduced to 6000
#2 Scout/Recon at +20 SNA reduced to 3000

Would everyone signed up be agreeable to this?

Jeremy

couple of quick questions/thoughts:

Why change the cost of agents? Understanding some of their orders aren’t being used but does that justify allowing a 60 at game start?

Why only change agents…if they are of diminished capacity, following the limited logic attempt above, doesn’t that also mean that commanders, emissaries, and mages actually go up in capacity? more mounts created, more influences on other pop centers, more commanders needed since the agents “might” not be needed as much?

For that matter why not allow cheaper com/ags for the same reason?..what’s to guard?..

I guess I’m looking for why the change to just this and nothing else…

I signed up as a neutral and so the agents thing wasn’t going to effect me as much as the DS nations who choose non-human…

I think until I have heard more about why…my answer is no…

thanks for reading,

Jz

In keeping with what I understand the way of things I vote “no” :wink:

Well, I’m not attached to my proposal but I am stunned at the responses. Guys, the primary and seconary value of agents is as assassins. They are immensely powerful, and that is the reason that in the FA setup agent power and SNA’s are so expensive. The original FA had the +20/ka costing only 12000 and you could start with a 60- and a couple of 40- agents and it was ridiculous. So they pumped up the costs to limit the assassination power of agents. In NKA, they don’t need to be limited because they (assassins) are eliminated. If you just look at what agents are able to do – steal gold, artifacts, sabotage bridges/fortifications/stores, scout armies, all useful things but about 25% as effective, if that, as they are when they can do the 615/620 orders.

My proposal was based on my concern that in the NKA scenario, agent starting characters and points are priced beyond what anyone will pay for them, and I had wanted to bring them more in line with their value proposition in the NKA game.

As I said, I’m not attached, happy to play with the system as it is, but I am stunned that you (two so far) don’t see any reason to change it<g>.

I can understand no plus 20’s for a kill, but if no 615 or 620’s are allowed at all – why have agents at all ??

I’m not surprised you were surprised…

But in my role in my work as administrator my job is to make others think through an initial process or “good idea” and make them understand there is more to consider…

I’m fine w/ looking through this process with anyone else…but I don’t make decisions based on only a limited set of facts.

Jz

to Morgulhammer,

brother dear we are discussing a NKA game not a KMA game where all the administrators get a +20 attractiveness score to increase the likelihood that some otherwise useless toady will up the chapstick ante and plaster you with love as only Carmex can!
But to answer the interrogative on reducing agent costs; it occurs to me that most folks who play FA understand the inherent value of agents not only for their character killing abilities but the fact that they can empty treasuries, provide loyalties of pop centers, reduce fortifications, and scout armies or other intel gathering that cannot be done by other classes and still gain ranks every turn. I wonder if the visceral reaction to making agents more playable is owed to the number of times agents have dominated the landscape in other games.
I do not see a serious issue with making them more available; I believe it lends to more creative play. I am unopposed to the request.

Later
jerry
also an administrator

OMGosh…Wyndbag…

What exactly do you administrate? I’ve got an ostemy for ya…lol…

I run a multi million dollar business with over 50 employees and over 700 immediate customers and their families…

You…sell scrubs for nurses, butt cream, and the occasional cane…btw which you need…lol…and if you insult my greatness again…I’ll see to it you need one for each hand…just to go take a poo…lol…

jk…maybe…sorta…well…hahahahahahahahaha…mirra mirra…on da wizzal…who’s the biggess pizzimp of dem all…MOBY…

It occurs to me that perhaps we should face off in the FA all neutral format so that I can let you hire your 10K men at arms to attempt to overrun my Hobbiton Rangers who will never have to muster out of training camp cuz your dumb arse will go bankrupt trying to figure out to afford 10K men at arms.

Can one imagine the chagrin you would feel once I have trodden thy banner 'neath my steel shod boot?

And as for being the " Administrator of a blah blah blah " bear in mind that I have the inside track on nursing homes and hospitals…you gonna need me my diabetic brotha that works too much and doesn’t take care of his damn self cuz you are too busy proving yourself to live past 55.

but whatever bring it on I will simply have to wait for a little time while THE REAL WORLD invades your play time and I crush you like Plankton over Mr Crabs.

can you dig it sucka!
p.s. for those who don’t know we are twins…he had it coming

You guys are great!!! LOL!!! Thanks for sharing yourselves for the rest of us to see such brotherly love.

Well, as Wyndhammer put so well, agents can do so many other things. They have super-dominated the FA landscape putting them far above all other classes, eliminating the 615/620 order means that they finally have to actually earn their living – stealing gold, sabotaging supplies, fortifications, bridges and harbors, and gathering intelligence on enemy forces. Even the scout for characters can be made useful if you want to pull off surprise challenges. But I’m concerned that in an NKA game, people won’t go with agent rank and SNA’s because they are so expensive, and it will effectively become a game of 3 kinds of characters; I’d like to see those agent-related nation-building costs reduced to be in line with the greatly reduced power of agents.

Side note/personal soapbox:
Anyone here ever read the Blue Adept series by Piers Anthony, and the gaming grid? The main character (Stile) was an expert gamer at all sorts of activities, but the one thing that could take him down was if someone gridded him into a game of pure chance, requiring no skill whatsoever. That’s about where the 615/620 orders fit in, IMHO. It takes practically no ability at all to wield a +20 K/A nation, it’s like taking candy from a baby.

I haven’t heard from the company that they would set up a 4th age all neutral variant…

btw…assuming it does set up…is there a rule that not everyone on the board takes +20 K/A for agents? Just curious…cause while I don’t think it would be as prevalent as some perhaps it would be worth looking at if that part of the “standard” rules for 4th age are held up for this one…

As for my 10000 MA armies…you worry about how your cavalry all pretty in their mithril (OH wait that was me too)…would be utterly overrun by “militia…farmers with pitchforks…”…and how my vast clone armies would run you over…like the Grinder at a poker table…

And finally…dear brother…my proving myself everyday is how I am able to sustain my enthusiasm for the work…it’s hard; tense; literally making hundreds of decisions a day and moving on w/ no time to sit there and ponder…trust your instincts/gut/experience…make mistakes and learn from them…quickly…repeat it much and I’m out the door…and I know it.

My diabetes is doing ok, for the most part, I have several people keeping me honest here…don’t worry. I might not see 55…if I go at this pace for the entire time…but I’m not. My retirement will be at/near 52…I might still be working but only as a consultant or professor at a college. I know I can’t keep this up w/ my health.

I plan on living with you all or lil’ sis when I’m tore up fo real. You all are gonna have to forgive the bevy of babes that come around though…I might slow down but I’m hoping to die w/ the biggest smile on my face EVER. LOL

ok then…for those who don’t care…sorry I took up the space. Cya Wyndy…love you bro.

Hey Jeremy,

I know I have spoken with a couple of FA veterans and we feel that the agent sna’s would be used perhaps not in as great of numbers but used still yet to make the NKA variant very interesting. I am of the opinion that seven nations per allegiance with conjure mounts sna churning out thousands of cavalry in steel is more troubling than one nation per allegiance having the super agent abilities and a double scout nation to back him up.

Which brings up a thought: does anyone have experience with attempting to get better agents by choosing stealth and starting with 40 pt agents instead of the +20 K/A sna? I had thought perhaps getting stealth and double scout would be a better agent nation than just the +20 version.

anyhow, Morgulhammer has the right of it. Retire early and enjoy the years prior to the “golden years” as most of my patients will tell you: those years are not so golden unless you enjoy waiting rooms, chronic illnesses, and a healthcare system that is bent on writing prescriptions for everything except a change of lifestyle.

later
jerry

Hi Jerry,

You raise a good point about the conjuring mounts, but it does take a lot of organization to have the leather on hand in several popcenters, combine the troops of armies raised in several popcenters, create the economy to sustain them, and when all that is said and done, to deploy them effectively. And there are many effective ways to deal with them, including fortifications, blocking armies, blocking armies from multiple nations to pin them down, challenges, island popcenters, and of course opposing troops, nations set in forest or mountain hexes hard to reach, and so on. And even falling back – more than once I’ve allowed enemy cavalry to take over my homeland while I rebuild elsewhere, when my homeland isn’t located in a tactically important area and where my allies are offsetting that attack by going after tactically important areas.

On the other side of things, deploying assassins is child’s play, and there’s very little anyone can do about assassins, even mid-rank agents are only middling effective as guards, and getting your high ranking emissary into a hex with an enemy agent to double him takes a lot of guesswork and chasing around during which the emmy is useless, and still only protects one nation. So assassins pretty much romp around and it takes little effort or skill to use them effectively. Hey, assassins can even take out characters in hidden capitals, how does that work?? And worst of all, they pretty much limit all FA games to 20-25 turns, like terminating a chess game 3 moves into the mid-game, just as it starts to get interesting and really fun. My most fun games are the ones the last 40-90 turns, and they seem few and far between these days.

(As a side note, it’s frankly ridiculous even within the “suspension of disbelief” that we do have to have in order to play within any gaming system, that one agent can disperse, say, thousands of troops, especially FP troops, by dispatching its commander, or that it would be even possible for an orcish assassin to penetrate the forces of elves.)

For 1650 the system as a whole seems to balance out, somehow, but for FA what I would prefer to resorting to NKA would be a system where both hostile popcenters-in-proportion-to-size-and-loyalty and armies-in-proportion-to-size-and-morale have extremely negative effects on the success chances of 615/620 orders, with correspondingly more severe penalties for failing, as well as boosting the popcenter loyalty or army morale when an agent does fail, and where the guard order is more effective.

Thanks for listening<g>