VC's and Player ratings - Brad

But good players don't neccesarily have to be on the winning side either. A
Corsairs jumping onto a winning DS side can't be seen to be a good player.
Sneaky diplomat maybe but good player? How do you define hisrole when he
perhaps didn't even take part in the war.

Some of the best players go down in flames gloriously despite their best
efforts. Their team invariably gets some much needed breathing space through
his prolonged demise. If that team then does not win how then would his
staunch and admirable play be viewed, considering they lost?

Playing good isn't the same as being good. Likewise winning games doesn't
mean you're good either. Teamwork can be guaged but individual stats are
much harder to define.

The simple questionnaire could have a rating system that each player would
fill in. Say a value from 1 - 10 for each question with 10 being excellent
and 1 being pretty duff. The questions could be based on -

Co-operation within team(Own Nations)
Co-ordination within team(Own Nations)
Communication level(Neutrals)
Challenge level(for enemies only thus for a winning team a chance to show
their appreciation for a good game to specific enemies. Would need a
sub-clause thingy then for possibly Most feared Enemy Nation. Most Feared
Enemy Army. Most Feared Enemy Char. These could be individual as each nation
would have fought different foes and met different challenges.)

In this way players can comment on every player in the game. Obviously lack
of interaction will average out scores as say 5 on the scale is little/no
contact with the lower areas being bad/rude/unwanted attention etc.

Alan J.

···

Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Player <pbmnoot@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: VC's and Player ratings - Alan:

The proposed Player Ratings have nothing to do with VC's
or VP's. They're completely different, designed for the
exact reasons you've explained. They're based on how many
winning teams you're on mostly. VC's play no part.

Brad

But good players don't neccesarily have to be on the winning side
either. A
Corsairs jumping onto a winning DS side can't be seen to be a good
player.
Sneaky diplomat maybe but good player? How do you define hisrole when
he
perhaps didn't even take part in the war.

Over time, with enough finished games, the better players
will be on more winning teams. If "expert" players play
around with the game, using the BS to RA 8 arties a turn
to compare to the known lists, or name 10 emissaries to
run around provoking the encounter database, then they
lose as a result of their play and are rated accordingly.

The sneaky diplomat happens, sure. I've also seen neutrals
jumped by other neutrals early, or steamrolled by an allegiance
because they already decided they had enough neutrals or
this or that or whatever. Nature of the game. How many of
these instances happen amongst the 25 nations who start each
game? 1 a game (a mere 4%) ? No where near that often.
Anecdotes are minor blips of memory within a huge pool of
experience, remembered only because they lay outside the
norm - which is exactly my point.

Some of the best players go down in flames gloriously despite their
best
efforts. Their team invariably gets some much needed breathing space
through
his prolonged demise. If that team then does not win how then would
his
staunch and admirable play be viewed, considering they lost?

Better players find ways, more often than not, of helping
their team win, NOT ONLY by playing their own nation very
well. Leaders are social and diplomatic and are able to
motivate, teach, advise, bully, etc, the rest of the team
and often the neutrals, into joining his/her/their gameing
style, leading to victory more often than not.

Many excellent and knowledgeable players do not communicate.
They will generally, over time, rate lower then less able
players who communicate more. That's because it's a Team
game and one's overall Team results is what's being rated.

And if the odd game is lost, so be it, one out of how many?
And if the odd excellently played game is lost, it's obviously
to an ever better team (more likely than not) and the players
rating will not decrease as much as if he lost to a poor
team.

I've known many who claim to be excellent players (and
always brag about how many games they've "won") who turn
out to be more of a hinderance to the team's success than
an eager and communicative newbie.

Playing good isn't the same as being good. Likewise winning games
doesn't
mean you're good either. Teamwork can be guaged but individual stats
are
much harder to define.

The simple questionnaire could have a rating system that each player
would
fill in. Say a value from 1 - 10 for each question with 10 being
excellent
and 1 being pretty duff. The questions could be based on -

Co-operation within team(Own Nations)
Co-ordination within team(Own Nations)
Communication level(Neutrals)
Challenge level(for enemies only thus for a winning team a chance to
show
their appreciation for a good game to specific enemies. Would need a
sub-clause thingy then for possibly Most feared Enemy Nation. Most
Feared
Enemy Army. Most Feared Enemy Char. These could be individual as each
nation
would have fought different foes and met different challenges.)

I'd welcome an end game poll/vote/questionnaire and participate
fully. Problem being participation. I doubt (and I've been
backed up by experience here) that enough players would
participate in even the simplest poll to make it meaningful.
The more complicated you make it (add questions, rate out of
ten instead of simply vote for a player, etc), you'll lose
participation exponentially.

In this way players can comment on every player in the game.
Obviously lack
of interaction will average out scores as say 5 on the scale is
little/no
contact with the lower areas being bad/rude/unwanted attention etc.

Alan J.

Regards,

Brad Brunet

···

--- "A.D.Jeffrey" <Lionatus@madasafish.com> wrote:

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

> The simple questionnaire could have a rating system that each player
> would
> fill in. Say a value from 1 - 10 for each question with 10 being
> excellent
> and 1 being pretty duff. The questions could be based on -
>
> Co-operation within team(Own Nations)
> Co-ordination within team(Own Nations)
> Communication level(Neutrals)
> Challenge level(for enemies only thus for a winning team a chance to
> show
> their appreciation for a good game to specific enemies. Would need a
> sub-clause thingy then for possibly Most feared Enemy Nation. Most
> Feared
> Enemy Army. Most Feared Enemy Char. These could be individual as each
> nation
> would have fought different foes and met different challenges.)

I'd welcome an end game poll/vote/questionnaire and participate
fully. Problem being participation. I doubt (and I've been
backed up by experience here) that enough players would
participate in even the simplest poll to make it meaningful.
The more complicated you make it (add questions, rate out of
ten instead of simply vote for a player, etc), you'll lose
participation exponentially.

Yes I agree but if that's what you want I am happy to try it.

Clint

RD: I agree. Keep it simple. The simpler it is, the more likely players are to participate. One vote for the best player on your own team, one vote for the best enemy nation (ie the one that gave you the most problems). I know players can trade votes amongst their own team, but votes for the enemy (especially if they don't know the player) are likely to be impartial.
  Richard.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Middle Earth PBM Games
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:29 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] 5th Rating part II

  > > The simple questionnaire could have a rating system that each player
  > > would
  > > fill in. Say a value from 1 - 10 for each question with 10 being
  > > excellent
  > > and 1 being pretty duff. The questions could be based on -
  > >
  > > Co-operation within team(Own Nations)
  > > Co-ordination within team(Own Nations)
  > > Communication level(Neutrals)
  > > Challenge level(for enemies only thus for a winning team a chance to
  > > show
  > > their appreciation for a good game to specific enemies. Would need a
  > > sub-clause thingy then for possibly Most feared Enemy Nation. Most
  > > Feared
  > > Enemy Army. Most Feared Enemy Char. These could be individual as each
  > > nation
  > > would have fought different foes and met different challenges.)
  >
  >I'd welcome an end game poll/vote/questionnaire and participate
  >fully. Problem being participation. I doubt (and I've been
  >backed up by experience here) that enough players would
  >participate in even the simplest poll to make it meaningful.
  >The more complicated you make it (add questions, rate out of
  >ten instead of simply vote for a player, etc), you'll lose
  >participation exponentially.

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

> RD: I agree. Keep it simple. The simpler it is, the more likely
> players are to participate. One vote for the best player on your own
> team, one vote for the best enemy nation (ie the one that gave you
> the most problems). I know players can trade votes amongst their own
> team, but votes for the enemy (especially if they don't know the
> player) are likely to be impartial. Richard.

Voting for your own team is fine, but I think nations are a little too insular to vote for the opposition. If I'm Cardolan, the only enemies I see are WK and DgL (maybe Rhuduar). I won't have as good an idea about the QA.

      jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!

Richard DEVEREUX wrote:

  > RD: I agree. Keep it simple. The simpler it is, the more likely
  > players are to participate. One vote for the best player on your own
  > team, one vote for the best enemy nation (ie the one that gave you
  > the most problems). I know players can trade votes amongst their own
  > team, but votes for the enemy (especially if they don't know the
  > player) are likely to be impartial. Richard.

  Voting for your own team is fine, but I think nations are a little too
  insular to vote for the opposition. If I'm Cardolan, the only enemies I
  see are WK and DgL (maybe Rhuduar). I won't have as good an idea about
  the QA.

                    jason
  RD: We're talking about the end game here. If your Cardolan has been spectacularly successful, you armies will be one of the FP battering down the gates of Morannon and storming into Mordor. You should therefore be in a position to pass opinions on the quality of opposition put up by the Mordor nations, including their use of agents and cursers by (for example) Cloud lord and Blind Sorceror.

  The reverse is also true. If your Cardolan is on the losing side, who has done you the most damage? CL with his agents, Dog lord with his cavalry, WK by his stubborn resistance, or the QAv navy raiding your coastal pops?

  Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jason Bennett
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] 5th Rating part II

  --
  Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
  E pur si muove!

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The more I think about it though, the more problematic the concept becomes. I imagine that in such a system ClL would always get most of the votes from a defeated FP team, because he's the one they've SEEN doing the most damage to them. In actuality though, it might be the faithful scouting of DrL and QAv, or the inspired intelligence gathering of BlS working faithfully behind the scenes, which have been the strongest element. So despite previously having advocated an "opposition vote", I no longer think it is a good idea - it would NOT get us any nearer to a fair assessment of good play.

I do think however that the fear some have of own side voting becoming "just a popularity contest" is paranoia. It's not like an American election (allegedly), few of us know what the others look like, or care who has the most sweaty forehead in the TV debate. Who are you going to vote for when you're asked for "player who made the best contribution?" I'd try to make an objective assessment, and I'm inclined to think that the great majority of ME players are decent chaps who value fairness, and who would do the same.

Laurence G. Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

···

At 23:23 09/10/2002, you wrote:

  The reverse is also true. If your Cardolan is on the losing side, who has done you the most damage? CL with his agents, Dog lord with his cavalry, WK by his stubborn resistance, or the QAv navy raiding your coastal pops?

The more I think about it though, the more problematic the concept
  becomes. I imagine that in such a system ClL would always get most of the
  votes from a defeated FP team, because he's the one they've SEEN doing the
  most damage to them. In actuality though, it might be the faithful
  scouting of DrL and QAv, or the inspired intelligence gathering of BlS
  working faithfully behind the scenes, which have been the strongest
  element. So despite previously having advocated an "opposition vote", I no
  longer think it is a good idea - it would NOT get us any nearer to a fair
  assessment of good play.
  RD: Perhaps you are thinking about it TOO much, looking for problems. I don't agree ClL would ALWAYS get the votes from defeated FP - the ClL would still have to be played competently and this doesn't always happen with the "flagship" nation. I've been on a winning FP team in which the Noldo played a very indifferent game. No, he was worse than that, he might as well not have been in the game let alone on the team. But the rest of the FP won through good teamwork. Had there been a voting system in place then, Nol would obviously have received "nil points" from everybody on both teams.

  OTOH the guy who pulled the strings for the FP received a unanimous and unsolicited vote of thanks from his team-mates. This is EXACTLY how the votes for your own "best player" should be cast. I agree the losing DS could not be aware of who was pulling the strings for the FP, but the FP votes would have outweighed a divided vote by the surviving DS, giving a fair result.

  This system isn't perfect - the perfect voting system is unachievable - but it is simple, workable, and fair. KISS remember?

  What's the alternative - have some kind of "seeding" system so that votes for ClL and Nol are reduced in value? By how much? We could argue over that until the cows come home (I think some people still are!).

  I do think however that the fear some have of own side voting becoming
  "just a popularity contest" is paranoia. It's not like an American
  election (allegedly), few of us know what the others look like, or care who
  has the most sweaty forehead in the TV debate. Who are you going to vote
  for when you're asked for "player who made the best contribution?" I'd try
  to make an objective assessment, and I'm inclined to think that the great
  majority of ME players are decent chaps who value fairness, and who would
  do the same.

  Laurence G. Tilley

  RD I agree.

  In addition, I must repeat that a vote for the "best opposition nation" would be unbiased (assuming that, as in most cases, you don't know who is playing which opposing nation), so the "popularity contest" fear does not apply to such a vote. That is one reason I advocate a vote for "best opposition nation" so strongly.
  Richard.

  http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Laurence G. Tilley
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] 5th Rating part II

  At 23:23 09/10/2002, you wrote:
  > The reverse is also true. If your Cardolan is on the losing side, who
  > has done you the most damage? CL with his agents, Dog lord with his
  > cavalry, WK by his stubborn resistance, or the QAv navy raiding your
  > coastal pops?