What happened to open 12v12/10v10 games without neutrals?

mepbmlist
#21

Hmmm. So this is why the traffic on this list has plummetted. Check the
numbers, 492, 378, and 256 messages in Aprils 2001, 2002, and 2003
respectively. But only 68 in April 2004. I sent a humourous rib at an
enemy about a month or so ago that was obviously interpreted as "too
personal" or some such and never made an appearance. The person I was
targetting didn't even get the opportunity to complain, someone simply
didn't let it pass. I know the enemy on a personal level to such an extent
that the message in question would not have been taken in the context the
"moderators" may have been concerned about, but that's irrelevant, it was
"moderated".

Is it the "flamers" or the Heated Moments that have killed this list, or the
politically correct whiners who have?

Brad

ps - thanks for the clarification re: grudge game expense. The list yet
still serves a basic informative funcationality, for those who still bother,
but has lost so much flavour....

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "ME Games Ltd" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:08 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Flaming?

It's not been comment about anyone in particular but please be careful in
future guys. If you don't mind the head to head that's fine by me but

here

someone clearly does so in that case please don't offend others with your
comments.

Clint

> > >My hunch is that part of the problem is (IMHO) PRS.
> >
> > Nope. That's exactly what the "crazed activist"
> > wants everyone to believe
> > though.
>
>How could that not be a flame? I thought this list
>was moderated to prevent flames. I don't see how
>"crazed activist" can be considered anything but a
>flame.

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#22

If you guys do "moderate" a post to protect those of us with tender hearts, are we told about it or do we have to just figure it out when our post doesn't show up after a couple days?

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: doc norvell
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: What happened to open 12v12/10v10 games without neutrals?

  It is just an imaginative adjective.

  wes

  Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com> wrote:
  --- "Laurence G. Tilley" <lgtilley@morespeed.net>
  wrote:
  > At 01:07 12/05/2004, habanero_holt wrote:
  > >My hunch is that part of the problem is (IMHO) PRS.
  >
  > Nope. That's exactly what the "crazed activist"
  > wants everyone to believe
  > though.

  How could that not be a flame? I thought this list
  was moderated to prevent flames. I don't see how
  "crazed activist" can be considered anything but a
  flame.

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#23

If you guys do "moderate" a post to protect those of us with tender

hearts, are we told about it or do we have to just figure it out when our
post doesn't show up after a couple days?

Russ

Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once Russ,
anyone come to you about it? Nobody got back to me and advised "Please
don't send messages of this sort for blah blah reasons...etc...". I can't
imagine anyone (Clint..?) having the time. Which leads me to the whole
question of moderation in and of itself.

The forum recently had a discussion about moderation, and it was concluded
that posts would not be moderated, while a process was put in place to deal
with offensive material.

I expect MEGames considers the forum and this list differently? I've been
under the impression that this list was originally moderated to protect our
tender hearts against the increasing frequency of abuse in regards to
various acts of spam, advertisements (Wanna Play Naught...?), whether
offensive or simply outside the context of the list.

So now we get no spam/ads/porn, etc here. Great, but we also wait a day for
messages, and no longer get all of them... This greatly disrupts the "flow"
of conversation and has resulted, I contend, in a significant reduction in
interest and thus usage of this list.

I've created a very simple (clear enough?) poll in regards to this
situation:

"Which would you prefer:"

with the options:

1) moderated list
2) unmoderated list.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/surveys?id=1232343

Please vote and consider the consequences of moderation. Besides delayed
messages, missing messages, broken conversations, redundant replies because
readers don't know questions have been answered until the next day, etc, we
also have to consider the amount of time Clint et al would spend on this
type of activity and do we really consider that a valuable expenditure of
our turn fees?

Regards,

Brad Brunet

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net

#24

It doesn't have anything to do with the set-up fee, only free turns.
I thought that if someone picked up a dropped position they got free
turn(s). If I'm mistaken, what I said doesn't apply.

Kevin

>Maybe if people knew that they were going to leave
>their team in a lurch they would be less likely to drop without
>arranging for someone to pick up the nation.

How is that pertinent to Set-up fee? We offer many services to

help avoid

this and encourage team-mates to chat and share turns so that if

they do

···

miss a turn we can take action (and often before that).

Clint

#25

It doesn't have anything to do with the set-up fee, only free turns.
I thought that if someone picked up a dropped position they got free
turn(s). If I'm mistaken, what I said doesn't apply.

You get one turn at most and mostly that isn't done as I only allow players outside the game to get that FT.

Clint

···

Kevin
>
> >Maybe if people knew that they were going to leave
> >their team in a lurch they would be less likely to drop without
> >arranging for someone to pick up the nation.
>
> How is that pertinent to Set-up fee? We offer many services to
help avoid
> this and encourage team-mates to chat and share turns so that if
they do
> miss a turn we can take action (and often before that).
>
> Clint

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#26

So now we get no spam/ads/porn, etc here. Great, but we also wait a day

for

messages, and no longer get all of them... This greatly disrupts the

"flow"

of conversation and has resulted, I contend, in a significant reduction in
interest and thus usage of this list.

I think you might find that Yahoogroups are, well to put it nicely, not very
good <grin>. That causes me great grief and for some bizarre reason my
Outlook has started to send messages from certain people, and only on
certain lists but not other ones ???, straight to my delete box

I've created a very simple (clear enough?) poll in regards to this
situation:

"Which would you prefer:"

with the options:

1) moderated list
2) unmoderated list.

I do prefer moderation but only in a way that the moderation comes in after
the messages. So Spam etc gets through but then they get banned from the
list. Also if people do flame others, and there is a complaint, the GM sends
a gentle reminder and then a warning and then bans them from the list.

Its the way other lists are done and it works really well IMHO.

Thomas Crane
P.S. I didnt find anything of this too much (from what I caught anyway) If I
was involved I wouldn't have minded and considering the way I play
Neutrals.. Out for themselves and attacking other Neutrals and both sides
for small gifts I wouldn't be surprised if I was flamed by some people.

#27

Brad Brunet wrote:

Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once Russ,
anyone come to you about it? Nobody got back to me and advised "Please
don't send messages of this sort for blah blah reasons...etc...". I can't
imagine anyone (Clint..?) having the time.

I was "moderated" once for using the term "iriot"... Clint did mail me to
tell me that he wouldn't allow the post as it was a "personal attack". So,
yes, he or someone else does have the time.

Gavin

#28

Grey Squirrel wrote:

I do prefer moderation but only in a way that the moderation comes in after
the messages. So Spam etc gets through but then they get banned from the
list.

If you make the list "members only" and require approval for membership then
you don't get any spam posted to the group. Plus, spammers use fake
addresses and other tactics, so banning is pointless.

Gavin

#29

Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once Russ,
anyone come to you about it?

* Agh, what a bummer. I love being "dissed" by you.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 3:54 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Moderation/Poll

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "R.K.Floyd" <rkfloyd@charter.net

  > If you guys do "moderate" a post to protect those of us with tender
  hearts, are we told about it or do we have to just figure it out when our
  post doesn't show up after a couple days?
  >
  > Russ

  Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once Russ,
  anyone come to you about it? Nobody got back to me and advised "Please
  don't send messages of this sort for blah blah reasons...etc...". I can't
  imagine anyone (Clint..?) having the time. Which leads me to the whole
  question of moderation in and of itself.

  The forum recently had a discussion about moderation, and it was concluded
  that posts would not be moderated, while a process was put in place to deal
  with offensive material.

  I expect MEGames considers the forum and this list differently? I've been
  under the impression that this list was originally moderated to protect our
  tender hearts against the increasing frequency of abuse in regards to
  various acts of spam, advertisements (Wanna Play Naught...?), whether
  offensive or simply outside the context of the list.

  So now we get no spam/ads/porn, etc here. Great, but we also wait a day for
  messages, and no longer get all of them... This greatly disrupts the "flow"
  of conversation and has resulted, I contend, in a significant reduction in
  interest and thus usage of this list.

  I've created a very simple (clear enough?) poll in regards to this
  situation:

  "Which would you prefer:"

  with the options:

  1) moderated list
  2) unmoderated list.

  http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/surveys?id=1232343

  Please vote and consider the consequences of moderation. Besides delayed
  messages, missing messages, broken conversations, redundant replies because
  readers don't know questions have been answered until the next day, etc, we
  also have to consider the amount of time Clint et al would spend on this
  type of activity and do we really consider that a valuable expenditure of
  our turn fees?

  Regards,

  Brad Brunet

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#30

It's suggested in Bobbin's site that it would be interesting to know what
happens if Llachglin encounters Slardach. Well, if it is meant to be
Llachglin's pet, it is clearly rabid. Llachglin responded by saying just
one word, which was his name.

"Lhachglin" The word sounded loud in the quiet of the night. It was then
that he realized that he was to
fight for his very life. The mist surged up all around him and his spells
flashed again and again into the
empty air and mist. The air around him dropped suddenly in temperature and a
cold hand seemed to grip his
very heart. Air began to burn in his lungs and his mind refused to work.
Suddenly, he felt himself being
attacked by an invisible foe who seemed able to hit him at will. Again he
tried to focus his magic, and this
time, he felt as if he were closer to success. Just as he began to hope, he
was struck down from behind and
the soft laughter behind him was his only clue to his foe's whereabouts. It
was only as he turned and cast
that he realized who he was fighting. "The Demon Slyardach! It must be," he
thought in desperation. Just
then his spell struck and buried itself into something which began a
desperate howl that chilled him to the
bone. When the howling stopped, there was no sign of either mist or being.
After the battle, a small chest
was found. Inside was a scroll which burst into flames. As it burned, he
found a new spell in his memory!
Gems and jewels were also found. They valued about 12000 gold pieces and
were sent to the capital!

Still, I won the battle and it may be that Llachglin always gets a
favourable response.

Richard

#31

Everyone's comments to the contrary noted, it remains my _hunch_ that
PRS is responsible for fewer neutrals taking balance as a
consideration in their decisions. Having stated that, I suggested
that Clint monitor this. He'll have the data (over time) to figure
out what (if any) effect PRS is having. Then our hunches won't
matter. The data will speak for itself. And I'm fine with it
turning out that my hunch is wrong.

Also, the results of any one person's ("crazed activist" or whoever)
actions in any one game won't sway Clint. The data will. He is
running a business and wants both enjoyable games that people pay
money to play and an enjoyable game community that we all enjoy
participating in (and that hopefully increases the player base).

I have read all of the comments on my ideas for balancing neutrals
and find universal lack of support for either the idea of a "pledge
game" or a "n/2 + 1" game. Oh well. They were offered as ideas. If
they're bad ideas in the general concensus, let's throw them away.
But at least we're discussing ideas to help improve the game.
I do find that everyone agrees that I shouldn't run diplomacy for a
team though! :slight_smile:

These things said, let me point out a game moderation consideration
to Kevin Brown who states "As a neutral most often I join the side
that I think will be the most fun. Period. I think a number of
neutrals do this." Fine. But, it is the GM's job to ensure that all
players in a game have as much fun as possible. This is done by
creating a level playing field. While five neutrals who all flip to
one side might (?) have more fun doing so, they have perhaps made it
less fun for the team they didn't join, and also for the team they
did join. So is increasing the enjoyment of 5 worth the reduction of
enjoyment of 20? I think not. Therein lies the basis upon which I
submitted my suggestions (which have been thoroughly nuked).

As I did in game 31, I will personally continue to declare as a
neutral with game balance as a big consideration. Joining a fun
team will be right up there as well. In game 31 (1650), I picked up
an un-played Dun on turn 2 and, based on balance considerations (WK
getting nuked by competetent FP play, NG holding Ithil pass,
undeclared Rhudaur, etc.) and on the fact that BOTH DS & FP seem
competent and fun players to team with, am going DS rather early.
Now I have Cardolan and Arthodain and NG armies converging on me...
woohoo! woot! there's some fun! and challenge! To me, victory
(nation & team) is more enjoyable if achieved in the face of
challenge. And if defeat results, at least it results in the face of
challenge. Having five neutrals flip to one side (unless that somehow
balances the game) seems contrary to the notion of increasing
challenge for the neutrals... :slight_smile:

Dave

#32

Ah yes, I recall the time you sent me a personal email calling me an
"iriot". Still don't know what that Welsh insult means, so I'm still
offended... :wink:

Brad

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Moderation/Poll

Brad Brunet wrote:

> Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once

Russ,

> anyone come to you about it? Nobody got back to me and advised "Please
> don't send messages of this sort for blah blah reasons...etc...". I

can't

> imagine anyone (Clint..?) having the time.

I was "moderated" once for using the term "iriot"... Clint did mail me to
tell me that he wouldn't allow the post as it was a "personal attack". So,
yes, he or someone else does have the time.

Gavin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#33

Please don't presume to know the feelings of the other 20 players. What is
true for me is not necessarily true for you.

The GM's have created a level playing field within a "fun game" as best as
they can with the turn 0 set up of nations and allegiances. After that
point it's up to the players, period.

I'm currently moving against the FP in a game simply because the FP didn't
put enough effort into even pretending to care about neutrals in this game.
There are some excellent and intelligent players on this FP team, but they
might end up with 5 neuts against them. It might surprise you, but the last
game these guys were in together, the same thing happened. Now, is it us
neutrals who are to blame for the "un-fun" of the other "20"..? I think
not.

Brad

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "habanero_holt" <habanero_holt@yahoo.com

These things said, let me point out a game moderation consideration
to Kevin Brown who states "As a neutral most often I join the side
that I think will be the most fun. Period. I think a number of
neutrals do this." Fine. But, it is the GM's job to ensure that all
players in a game have as much fun as possible. This is done by
creating a level playing field. While five neutrals who all flip to
one side might (?) have more fun doing so, they have perhaps made it
less fun for the team they didn't join, and also for the team they
did join. So is increasing the enjoyment of 5 worth the reduction of
enjoyment of 20? I think not.

#34

Actually, it's more from Scooby Doo than anywhere else...

Which may in fact make it worse.

Gavin

Brad Brunet wrote:

···

Ah yes, I recall the time you sent me a personal email calling me an
"iriot". Still don't know what that Welsh insult means, so I'm still
offended... :wink:

Brad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Moderation/Poll

Brad Brunet wrote:

Well, you were the target of a jibe I sent that was "moderated" once

Russ,

anyone come to you about it? Nobody got back to me and advised "Please
don't send messages of this sort for blah blah reasons...etc...". I

can't

imagine anyone (Clint..?) having the time.

I was "moderated" once for using the term "iriot"... Clint did mail me to
tell me that he wouldn't allow the post as it was a "personal attack". So,
yes, he or someone else does have the time.

Gavin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#35

FYI, SLayardarch is indeed Llachglin's pet.

I.C.E.'s old Northern Mirkwood role-playing module
included an adventure where local villagers were being
killed by the vampire mist, Slyardarch. It ends up
that Slyardarch was being controlled by the evil
master of Sarn Goriwing (does that name ring a bell?),
a Sorcerer named Llachglin.

Lots of conjecture about potential for individualized
reactions has gone on over the years. Mostly its bunk
but occasionally you find a gem.

Mike

--- Richard Farrer <richard@rfarrer.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

···

It's suggested in Bobbin's site that it would be
interesting to know what
happens if Llachglin encounters Slardach. Well, if
it is meant to be
Llachglin's pet, it is clearly rabid. Llachglin
responded by saying just
one word, which was his name.

"Lhachglin" The word sounded loud in the quiet of
the night. It was then
that he realized that he was to
fight for his very life. The mist surged up all
around him and his spells
flashed again and again into the
empty air and mist. The air around him dropped
suddenly in temperature and a
cold hand seemed to grip his
very heart. Air began to burn in his lungs and his
mind refused to work.
Suddenly, he felt himself being
attacked by an invisible foe who seemed able to hit
him at will. Again he
tried to focus his magic, and this
time, he felt as if he were closer to success. Just
as he began to hope, he
was struck down from behind and
the soft laughter behind him was his only clue to
his foe's whereabouts. It
was only as he turned and cast
that he realized who he was fighting. "The Demon
Slyardach! It must be," he
thought in desperation. Just
then his spell struck and buried itself into
something which began a
desperate howl that chilled him to the
bone. When the howling stopped, there was no sign of
either mist or being.
After the battle, a small chest
was found. Inside was a scroll which burst into
flames. As it burned, he
found a new spell in his memory!
Gems and jewels were also found. They valued about
12000 gold pieces and
were sent to the capital!

Still, I won the battle and it may be that Llachglin
always gets a
favourable response.

Richard

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#36

Just as we mwntioned encounters, I'll take this opportunnity to share a piece of info. The vampire Thurinwethil, according to Bobbins, would let me escape if i said his name. I was DS, Blind Sorcerer to be precise. My emmy not only was forced into combat, but was killed, in contrast to the usual 1 hit point result....

        Just so u can update ur private encounter lists, and maybe for an update to bobbins ( Who knows when =PPP )

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Richard Farrer
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 9:48 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Slyardach

  It's suggested in Bobbin's site that it would be interesting to know what
  happens if Llachglin encounters Slardach. Well, if it is meant to be
  Llachglin's pet, it is clearly rabid. Llachglin responded by saying just
  one word, which was his name.

  "Lhachglin" The word sounded loud in the quiet of the night. It was then
  that he realized that he was to
  fight for his very life. The mist surged up all around him and his spells
  flashed again and again into the
  empty air and mist. The air around him dropped suddenly in temperature and a
  cold hand seemed to grip his
  very heart. Air began to burn in his lungs and his mind refused to work.
  Suddenly, he felt himself being
  attacked by an invisible foe who seemed able to hit him at will. Again he
  tried to focus his magic, and this
  time, he felt as if he were closer to success. Just as he began to hope, he
  was struck down from behind and
  the soft laughter behind him was his only clue to his foe's whereabouts. It
  was only as he turned and cast
  that he realized who he was fighting. "The Demon Slyardach! It must be," he
  thought in desperation. Just
  then his spell struck and buried itself into something which began a
  desperate howl that chilled him to the
  bone. When the howling stopped, there was no sign of either mist or being.
  After the battle, a small chest
  was found. Inside was a scroll which burst into flames. As it burned, he
  found a new spell in his memory!
  Gems and jewels were also found. They valued about 12000 gold pieces and
  were sent to the capital!

  Still, I won the battle and it may be that Llachglin always gets a
  favourable response.

  Richard

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#37

But you're missing an important distinction. ME is a _team_ game. Though
we should observe the interesting fact that it is a team game for 20
players but to begin with, not for 5.

If you join a cricket team, the umpire has a certain responsibility - for
refereeing the match. But he is not responsible for the fact that you
bowler fails to bowl to the field you set, the fact that your wicket keeper
has a hangover, or the fact that you can't play for toffee. He's not
responsible for the fact that the opposition has played better than you.

In ME open games, good play includes the diplomatic aspect. The rewards of
good play are advantages in the tilt of game balance as the game
progresses. If you play well in your first innings you'll have a
competitive score.

I would say that the GM needs to adjudicate if cheating has taken place,
that is if a house rule has been breached, or more problematically if he
adjudicates that the spirit of the game has been breached - if for example
he comes to believe that a pre-game agreement existed between a neutral,
and an aligned player.

But the fact that four neutrals all declare one way, and then a fifth
neutral joins them does not mean that he has failed to maintain a level
playing field. The playing field has to be level at the start of the
game. In the course of the game, one side will gain advantage by their
superior play. In ME this is in fact already balanced by the fact that
different neutrals declare for different reasons. Kevin joins the side
that will give him the most fun, I join the side which communicates best,
which for me is always also the best indicator of which side is most liable
to win. A number of regular neutral players however, see themselves as
"equalisers". They routinely hang around, and then deliberately declare
for the team that appears to be losing, or deliberately declare contrary to
the other declared neutrals. I personally find those chaps slightly
annoying, as you can only persuade them to join you if you can bluff them
that you're doing badly. IF the PRS reduces the number of "equalisers"
slightly, then I shan't regret it - though I doubt very much that it will.

mefacesmo.gif
     Laurence G.Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 18:18 14/05/2004, habanero_holt wrote:

These things said, let me point out a game moderation consideration
to Kevin Brown who states "As a neutral most often I join the side
that I think will be the most fun. Period. I think a number of
neutrals do this." Fine. But, it is the GM's job to ensure that all
players in a game have as much fun as possible. This is done by
creating a level playing field.