You’re welcome Ed. Let’s play in the same game sometime!
Dave
Hey, the simplest “fix” of all is to agree with your opponent in the grudge game NOT to do this.
Then the people that want to play with it can and the others can agree to just ignore the manuever.
Actually, someone else mentioned the possibility of simply ignoring it. Yes, trashing the DS economy is something that the FP try hard to do while the DS try hard to counter. So as a FP - let them do it. All those orders every “good FP team” uses to counter any DS attempted market shenanigans are returned to productive warring. All those extra orders required to ship gold/product to poor nations yet still fielding “FP Style HC Military” will be, again, directed at the demise of the Enemy. Maybe even naming some Mages, Agents and Emissaries with which they can attempt to redress some of the Unconventional advantages of their opposition. Opposition who is yet still requiring various capital orders to “manipulate” the market. Nice for the Eo to fund themselves by a couple Cojure Mounts mages also issuing 320-FO at a couple camps every turn, eh?
Brad the Canadian who says Eh
Take it a bit further, ME sees a 'problem" which they want to 'fix". Possible caused by the very desire to generate xmls, etc. Then they would use the “bridging” programs to do that.
Hya Ed - we don’t interfere in the program results. In our house rules we specifically point out what we do do, and what we don’t do. Believe us or not. You’ve thrown accusations like this in the past, when I then replied to you, you then accepted that we did not, or at least claimed to (do you give me permission to post those emails?) Then you come back again and throw slightly different worded accusations. I still don’t know what you’re trying to prove here or try to change. Maybe you’re just bored and like to throw the odd spanner in the works, maybe it’s more malicious than that I don’t know.
Please give it a break uh?
Where we have seen a problem we have discussed that with players (eg the recent discussion on the GB thread) and I’ve taken feedback from players and tried to implement it. Players seem to like what has been suggested there (and we’ve done that throughout our career of running PBMs). If we’re going to change anything we’ll tell you. Like I said, believe us or call us liars, manipulators of the truth or whatever wording you want, but have some proof before you start throwing out wild allegations, thinly veiled hints and the like.
Clint just a tad bored of Ed Mill’s year-in, year-out attacks (GM)
I’ve not seen proof that gold in one nation is different to gold spread throughout the nations. I can get someone to look into that if you want me to? Dave if you want to send me that proof I can look into it and comment further if you want me to?
Even if that was the case as a player I’m pretty sure that there are counters to such a strategy - I can think of around 5 or so off the top of my head (reason being that we’ve played against guys who were good at manipulating the market, keeping prices high and had to find strategies to deal with that). For me DS need to manipulate the market in some manner to keep in the game vs decent opposition, and some teams are stronger at doing that than others I’ve found.
Ie if you want our GM team is happy to play against a team trying to manipulate the market in such a manner and give it a decent go at winning (GM meaning me, Ed are in it from the ME staff, Sam from Harlequin, and a few of our friends play as well - some of you guys have met them at the FTF, or played with them in teams). Just playing against James in my 1v1 game and it looks like he’s blown up one of his nations from such manipulations though, and we’ve done that in the past (with our loss vs Brian, and I’ve personally done something similar in a FTF game!) and he claimed that there was no way to counter the FP offensive - so choose which side of the coin you want to here - FP are unbeatable, DS are unbeatable - yet both sides get beaten… 
When you’re getting beat it can often come down to “the other side has an unfair advantage” but sometimes you just lose a game due to no real fault of your own I’ve found. (Got a few games going that way it seems for me personally!!) :o
Clint (player)
My whole point is that FP becuase of their economic power think in this a a Wargame (BOX) and never get out until it’s to late… Ds on the otherhand must and do almost always play better as a team… Yet DS rarely ever strengthen thier tax base… Resource base and constant natsells of more than 1 item is counterproductive… Yet the FP never challenge thier weakness the only weakness they see is they have more and better troops and can out recruit them. That’s why the FP win early and lose later… No only do they not know how to protect themselves from DS agents. They fail attack the DS with thier charcters forcing the DS to respond to FP character war.
I do not see ant ME game as a War game… I view it as an Empire building game with 2 aligned sides and a possible 3rd fledging Empire the Nuetrals… My nation mission is to become the strongiest in my Empire therfore control all… Real wealth is Tax base! That mean the most town’s mt’s and cities and yes villages too with no camps!.
So do the FP have an advantage yes! Do most of the time do they squander their own advantage yes… That’s why they lose… There is no set strategy by either side that cannot be beaten every time… No unbeateable combos of nuetrals joining one side or the other that insures a team win… It is still the best teamplay that eventually wins or quickly wins…
Only change I think might be practical is either making certain nations availble for first time players IE less than 10 turns expierence or making certian key nations not availble on both sides… such as Noldo and Sinda for FP i can think of some 3rds but they debateable… and Cloudlord witchking and Dragonlord for DS should never be new players…
I do not aggree with Clint that FA 1000 is good for new players… It way to complex and cutthroat haveing all orders availble by all classes with every nation by turn 6… Even well expierenced 1650 playing FA 1000 for the first time find themselves facing elimination very quickly or eliminated by turn 12 with the vetrena FA 1000 players… You need a freind to help you setup the game well and pray LOL…
Terry
Clint, the transfer of gold to one nation works. It is not a myth but fact.
However, as Clint mentioned it doesn’t make the dark servants unbeatable. It will still come down to the team that plays the best and makes the fewest mistakeswill win. So far in every game I have played. When I won, I and the team played well and the other side did not. When we lost, I and the team played bad.
I think what makes the game fun is arguing which side is stronger. So far I have not come to a true conclusion as I have never seen a game played really well from both sides at the same time.
tim
Has there been an example of a FP team that has won against a DS team employing this strategy? I don’t know of any yet … my concern is not as much sever imbalancing, but an “all things equal” issue - with two equal teams, does this throw the balance too far to DS, if one of the major problems DS always have (funding, especially in winter) can be eliminated rather simply every game?
A good team will beat a bad team all the time. I don’t think that’s the issue
How many times has “this strategy” been employed…? I’ve seen it twice, former 1 week Game 90 and the Game 16 PoWeR game talked about here. Both those games the DS won.
Not enough data to determine if this is an overwhelming advantage to the dark servants.
Like Clint mentioned, he has four or five idea’s to counter the strategy. I have an idea or two how to counter it as well but will save them for a game that I actually get to play where the dark servants employ this strategy.
I also see some drawbacks to the strategy employed by the dark servants but again I will hold comments until I have seen them employed in a game.
With every strategy their is a counter strategy. Sometimes you just need to think out of the box.
later,
tim
I can come up with counter strategies also, question is if they are effective enough to make a dent. You can say guarding is a counter strategy to ClLo killers, but we all know it is typically not effective from mid-game on. You know what I mean.
Time will tell I suppose. I don’t rememeber the game number I saw it in, frankly. I’m in one now, and we’ll see how it plays out.
You can say guarding is a counter strategy to ClLo killers, but we all know it is typically not effective from mid-game on. You know what I mean.
Yes it’s one strategy, but I wrote an article on what I thought were effective counter-measures and generally don’t rate guarding very highly (unless you are using similarly high level agents).
I’ll think about an article for later - ideally I prefer others write articles
Clint
The best counter to high level agent activites is make sure I play the Cloud Lord. My agent activities stink in every game I play. Assasinate, guard, scout for characters, it don’t matter it usually takes me a minimum of twice to accomplish any goal.
However, I do have to admit I think I get a bonus to putting camps down.
I know everything I said above is bogus, but it sure seems that way to me.
later,
tim
Hey Tim,
Don’t forget your penchant for getting stealth bonuses on your emmies and no one else…grin
Wade
What Bree was it in?
Frankly, I think the best way to deal with the CL is to take the fight to him. Yep, it’s amazing how many people pale at the idea of a visit to the CL capital but it’s a happy hunting ground as he has to spot you to hurt you and his challenge ranks stink. (just dont send in Elrond lol).
The Duns, Woodies and Dwarves are particularily well suited for this strategy.
Lastly, the CL does not have the ability to name agents for free. 
I’ve yet to hear a counter to this strategy that would work on a competant DS squad. Drop me an email at my work addy and let’s discuss. 
Hmm this took 30 seconds… FP 30 agents stealing gold from camps… having 40+ emmy’s on the DS 20 or less loyality camps stealing them away… Forcing DS agents to guard camps from being robbed blind and try to prevent bankruptcy so they are not stealing from the FP. means they are developing slower… While FP still have the economic advantage and nice market prices Thanks to DS!
Terry
I’m with you Terry. And now, those FP agents stealing gold are going to pump up and be useful FP characters in the mid-game, when normally the FP lose due to the character strength of the DS…
hmmm… doesn’t seem so lopsided to me…
just imagine id the Dwarves made a couple of 30 agents wither thier recon ability… the FP nations with stealth made 30 agents and retired all that did not get stealth… Do the FP have the economic power to afford to do this? I think so… FP do have the ability to conduct a character war to fully utilize thier economic advantages they actually just have to hit and run until they can setup the DS characters like the DS setup the FP armies…
Terry