Quite a fan of destroying all the DS camps (and other PCs) I find as FP myself.
Clint (player)
Dear Mr. Clint (player),
Just look at the mkt prices on your turnsheet in G25 for the proof. Can you really say what you said above with a straight face?
Drew (also a player)
Drew: Yes, that’s why I said it. 
Happy to discuss the game afterwards if you want though (or are you guys ready to concede already?!) 
Clint (player)
Note: I’m not denying we’ve done things with the market in this game just in case you were thinking we were being disengenious here but that my point stands.
I’m not trying to be difficult…I’m just looking for someone to give me some good examples.
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Stealing gold from the DS is nothing the FP can’t do already. Since the markets are going crazy…this hurts the DS less than it otherwise would.
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DS don’t have to run high tax rates when steel, bronze and leather are 9+…and what does losing a camp or two cost if you can do market limit sales from the production of say…3 camps.
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Only a completely inept DS player would guard his camps against theft when he can walk over and steal from your towns\villages and net a bigger haul than you are getting and gain more skill. ???
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Yes, the FP still have an economic advantage…but many of the FP can market limit sell almost every turn anyway so their income is unchanged or less benefited. I would be willing to wager that total team income in dollars (not as a %) increases more for the DS than the FP in this scenario.
To the extent that a bad FP team comes to realize that naming some agents, developing them and pinning down the DS economies can be a good tactic…I agree with you that it’s not so lopsided.
For a good FP team that already realizes this (The Dwarf in our last game had 3 killers by turn 20ish) the higher market prices help the DS.
Bottomline, why do good FP teams crash the market? Keep prices high…it doesn’t help the DS?
In closing, I’m not 100% convinced of the impacts of this tactic…but I’m thinking that the DS will benefit.
Further speculation is kinda moot…we’ll just play it out and see how it goes.
I think Veo has the right idea that we just keep our eye on the victory %'s.
Do I have it right that no DS team has yet lost when employing this strategy. (Yes, sample size and correlation render this currently meaningless…just curious to hear from the first FP to defeat this strategy or just run into an easy target?)
the point here is simple… If a FP agent gets let say 6k from an unguarded camp that means the cash reserves of the ds are high… Losing that much gold per turn still Aid the Fp and the FP still benifit from the same market conditions. They are training thier Newly made 30 agents being able to maintain more Characters and armys still… and as far as those camps are concerned… Last I check the DS do not start with a bunch of 40+ agents they are in thier 30’s meaning those camps are still below 20 loyality up creation and it only takes one good order to steal away the the camp it’s resources for natsells…
So please do no guard your camps when you employ this strategy… I enjoy free gold and the same level of increase from stealing from your camps with 30 agents … Those very steal attempts will find the said keeper of the DS treasury.
Like it has been there is NO Undefeatable strategy… Once again it only took me 30 seconds to come up with one that works…
Terry
Opps slight typo I meant 40 emmy’s but you get the point.
Terry
But as said above, DS training agents steal it right back. And it is actually easier - you know the Gondors won’t be naming agents. Ditto NM, Eothraim, Arthy, Cardy, etc. FP agents mostly come from the elves and woodies. So you can really concentrate your “steal back” power.
JB
That’s why they should name a 30 agent at game start. The point is stop thinking in a box games changes are not needed. The same poeple who suggest changes are needed refuse to change and take the charcter wars to the ds… Every nation should have 30 agent and 30 emmy at game start if facing DS nations agent power… Insanity is do the same thing over and over again with the same results that is in effect what the average FP does… Then complains that the game needs to be changed instead of changing thier tactics… This tactic I explained clearly would hurt the DS nations severly… Why just a look at the DS nations deficts early on claerly shows they must natsell all thier resources almost every trun to get the 20k max natsell a Low market benifits the FP more than the DS due to larger tax base… Even If the DS employ this tactic stealing thier gold at 5k per means they only get 15k per turn most ds nations run well over 10k per turn some closer to 20k…
This tactic of attack DS in mordor never happens if it did the FP would win more… The facts are simple the DS must steal gold to make ends meet the FP do not… But if the FP are stealing back it negates and prevents the DS from naming more charcters unless they respond to the FP steals… This has rarely if ever been used from my expierence in 1650 games… every strategy article ever written suggest NG and EO make com agents… yes but they should make and EMMY and a 30 agent at game start… Instead of useing thier existing com/agents as commanders at game start they should be backups developing the agent skill…
Get out of the losing strategies and change your tactics the game is balanced… Just some losing startegies have been embraced as being the best way to play those nations as a whole and nothing different is even being tried becuase the average player is unwilling to try.
Terry
Terry, it may have taken 30 seconds, but it is not a counter strategy that would work in 1650. I think there are a number of other posts telling you why. From your post I think that maybe you have most of your experience in 2950 or 4th age? I assure you that in 1650 i. FP dont have much in the way of character slots to name many A30s and ii. I never saw an agent steal 1,000 gold from a camp: mostly it is 200-300
I tell you, this market manipulation is gruesome, plain and simple, and I write as someone who has benefited from it
Cheers
Mike
Clint,
As far as conceding, I’m glad to see the smiley faces and winks in your post – I know you couldn’t say that with a straight face. <g>
I’ll make a point of taking you up on this offer; I’d love to find out what you guys have done to inflate prices other than pooling a lot of gold into one treasury. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, whatever else your team may have done in G25 with the mkt, I’ll still say it was the T1 pooling of gold that has accomplished inflation in the overall mkt prices. And like Mike just said above, I say that as someone who has employed the tactic with great effect elsewhere.
Drew
But as said above, DS training agents steal it right back.
Targetted stealing works here. DkL, say, doesn’t have many Agents so you can damage his economy relatively simply.
Clint (player)
Drew - happy to chat after the game if you want.
Clint (player)
There’s also a timing issue. DS on Trun 1 get prices up immediately. So FP name 30 agents - 30 agents can’t steal anything notable. To do damage let’s just say they need to be in the 40s - that’s 4-5 turns before they can even be deployed. Even if FO agents are fully effective, wouldn’t you as DS be happy with steel at 15 for 5 turns? And that is assuming that on Turn 6 new FP agents can be fully effective.
'nuff said I guess. Clint, definately taking you up on the 25 offer.
I find it interesting that anything that is seldom done can be written off as will not work by the opposition… I see it as very workeable becuase the DS would not want such attack as agents stealing from them and emmy’s influencing away the very camps that those high resource production of steel and bronze and mithril for that matter going to the FP for thier benefit would cuase as a waste of time against this market strategy or even normal game play…
That the DS would respond with character actions to stop it… That is exactly why it would be effective… put the character war in Mordor as well as in FP pc’s is quite different than what normally happens… So dismiss it… But i will use against the DS when I play against them and let just see how much it hurts the DS… The real strategy is attack the ds with characters as well the FP superior troops.
Just maybe some who think outside the Box might also try this and we will see if DS can maintain their current win rate by doing what they believe cannot be done…:eek:
Terry
We will have to agree to disagree. Your assumption rests on the fact the DS, at a mid-game point, will have to pull back offensive character actions to protect their economic interest. It is my believe that by the time FP actions like that come, not only does it not matter because of 5-8 turns of steel at 15, but by then the DS agents themselves will be in full force. So I feel the DS will not have the need to pull back. Their benefit has already been gained.
Agree to disagree.
I been looking for reason to play some aligned nations now I will play a few FP in 1650 games to show what can be done…
Terry
I would place my vote on Terry winning the game. I have never played with our against him (that I know of), but I like his thinking.
tim
Terry, come on in and shake the tree… I am all for challenging the received wisdom. Just dont think you’ll be able to do it the way u think u will