Dragons and Such

General
#1

All:
Just wondering: I’ve seen the posts suggesting that dragons give “x” amount of damage in army combat (Bobbins, I believe, lists one dragon as giving about 45,000 combat damage): is this the same for all dragons? How about the other groups that tend to join armies, such as ents (and is there a difference between Skinbark Ents and other ents), eagles, mumakil, hobbits, woses? Tougher than dragons (hard to imagine…), wimpie, what? And do these groups help against pop centers as well as armies, or just against armies? Any information from the old greybeards appreciated!

Mark

#2

this the same for all dragons?

Some players believe bigger, older dragons do more damage, but most see the damage as the same.
It’s hard to really know, since there are few (some, but few) combats where the difference between a 45K and 75K bonus matter.

eagles, mumakil, hobbits, woses?

There does appear to be a range, with mumakil as less strong and Ents at the high end. Some players believe Ents add a special war-machine like bonus against fortifications, but I haven’t seen that.

do these groups help against pop centers as well as armies, or just against armies

They add their bonus to the first round of combat. So if there is a defending army, they kill the army but sit on the sidelines for the pc attack. If there is no defending army, they’ll help against the pc.

#3

The only way to really calculate appx (or minimum…) dragon strengths is to have very close combat where one survives a dragon army attack (quite accurate information) or where a dragon “must therefore have been a minimum of…” to have been victorious. Most dragon combat’s simply annihilate the poor enemy such that anything other than fantastical guesstimates is simply not possible.

Dragons are characters with varying skills just like all the other characters. Depending on their age, type of attack, etc, they add vastly different combat values. A friend once compiled as much dragon information as he could find in a file, based on their lore and their characterizations in MERP. Using a formula that compared their “level” in the old game to some of the calculated values out there, he’s arrived at a relationship that is quite simple and linear. Dragons are different, have different challenges and inflict different damages. Many subsequent dragon calculations have matched his predictions since then.

Note, Dan, that there are 2 kinds of Ents, and, of course, the correct Ents must be used in pop centre combat without a defending army present. Then there’s the theory that the Ents simply negate the effects of fortifications on the defending armies constitution for the first round of combat… Again, the farther from “close” the combat, the more inaccurate any calculations are in these regards.

I don’t believe there are any “combat” hobbits…are there? There are a couple kinds of both Woses and Eagles, I believe, some fight, other’s do not. Don’t forget the Lossoth of the North. Balrogs too, no?

#4

Dragons are different, have different challenges and inflict different damages.

Many players believe those differences apply for chr interaction (like challenges) but not for combat. As noted, getting good combat data is tough.

Yes, right about the different Ents, and I’d forgotten about the theory that they can ignore fortifications. That seems possible, too, but I can’t recall seeing it. Anyone here have results?

#5

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nanook
[b]Many players believe those differences apply for chr interaction (like challenges) but not for combat.[QUOTE]

Why would there be a different challenge for these NPC’s, but the all act as equal artifacts in combat~? The differences have been calculated. 45,000 for one dragon, 27,000 for another. These figures are within 1000 str points of their calculated/estimated strength based on their Level in MERP. I believe one of the calculations is credited to Tom Walton, I mean, this stuff didn’t come out of my hat yesterday on a whim.

#6

Originally posted by VEO
I don’t believe there are any “combat” hobbits…are there?

There are two hobbit army encounters/NPCs that I know of; one is a group of hobbit archers, probably similar to the woses w/ blowdarts. I have no data on their strength but have had them in an Arthedenian army before.

#7

Their are combat hobbits. I have no idea the strength. But I have seen a 1000HI army have mutual annihilation with 600HC/600LC enemy army due to the damage done by the hobbits. the Hobbits were in the battle report.

tim

#8

Why would there be a different challenge for these NPC’s, but the all act as equal artifacts in combat~? .

The game designers may have calculated all dragon combat bonuses to be the same. They certainly aren’t based on skill ranks, since a beefed-up Elrond can match their ranks but can’t add anything close to the same bonus in combat.

The differences have been calculated. 45,000 for one dragon, 27,000 for another.

That’s possible, but be skeptical. it’s quite hard to get that data.

A bonus of 27,000 is more than enough for the vast majority of battles. Only in rare circumstances would you need more – say, a tiny army with a dragon vs an undefended, high-loyalty City/Keep.

45,000 is even harder: there are few City/Citadels, AND you’d need to have a small army AND know the exact loyalty (and have it be high!) AND have it be undefended by any army AND… you’d then need the exact same situation a second time-- with slightly higher loyalty so that you then could fail and calculate the upper limit (else you couldn’t know the bonus was 45,000 instead of, say, 60,000).

Getting that data is extremely hard. Anyone here on the Forum have such a pdf?

As with many things in ME-PBM, we’re just making educated guesses.

These figures are within 1000 str points of their calculated/estimated strength

That’s nearly impossible. Run the numbers and see the circumstances that would allow you to differentiate between 45K and 44K. Very, very few. You’d need a perfect situation and a cooperative enemy – and you’d need it twice, with perfect luck (meaning a spread of 5 points of loyalty at each of those City/Citadels to be so accurate). Ask to see the pdf for such specific claims.

one of the calculations is credited to Tom Walton

Tom, before his unfortunate recent postings here on the Forum, did do some thoughtful work on dragons, but I don’t believe he calculated individual differences. What he wrote was

I see one of several possibilities:
(1) In terms of combat strength, dragons are generic (all the same).
(2) Dragons are broken down into classes (weak, average, strong).
(3) Dragons have individual base strengths with a variable factor thrown in (like eagles, mumak, woses and such)

He doesn’t know, either, and his guesses include the ones already posted in this thread. But in the same article (“Beating Dragons”), he does cites two wyrms, and calculates both at the same strength, 45K.

That matches what I’ve seen. Anyone seen less? (or more?) Please share!

#9

I have related questions:

  1. You are sure that the above mentioned creatures work against pop centers ? At least one website states very clearly that this is not the case. I have attacked pop centers with mumakil and they were not mentioned in the battle report (and the pop center would have fallen in either case)

  2. Approximatly how strong are Thoronrim Eagles ?

In an upcomming battle I have an army with a strength of 6000 with Thoronrim Eagles. The pop center they could attack is undefended and has an approximate strength of 14.000. Would this work or would it be suicide ?

Thanks, Skage

#10

You need to be able to take the counterblow from the PC’s constitition and have one troop survive to destroy or capture a pop center. So 100MA and 3 dragons cant take squat.

At least that is my understanding

#11

Also they go to the first fight. If they have a 100 troops guarding the city, well your dragon will smear those 100 troops but wont touch the city.

#12

Originally posted by Celebion
[b]You need to be able to take the counterblow from the PC’s constitition and have one troop survive to destroy or capture a pop center. So 100MA and 3 dragons cant take squat.

That’s exactly right, as I once discovered the hard way. Your army’s CON must exceed the Def STR of the PC, or you get an odd result: a “successful” battle, but you don’t take the pc!

Note that this is incorrectly stated in the rulebook, which says that army losses aren’t computed until after the pc combat. That’s simply not true: the program checks to see if you have at least one guy still standing.

It’s the “Larry Rule.” You need one guy left (“Larry”) to hoot, holler and wave the flag. It’s ok if you have less than 100, and disband, but without Larry, you can’t Capture.

#13

Originally posted by nanook
Tom, before his unfortunate recent postings here on the Forum, did do some thoughtful work on dragons, but I don’t believe he calculated individual differences.

Belief and fact collide. You owe me a coffee.

#14

Thank you for those clarifications, I believe my previously mentioned army will contain at least one “Larry” (a very lucky guy). That leaves the strength of the Thornonrim Eagles. If it is 10.000 as mentioned by Bobbins, I should have no problem, but do anyone have experience with this ??

#15

<throwing out birdseed to distract the eagles…just in case it’s in game 50>

#16

Belief and fact collide. You owe me a coffee.

Hmmm… not sure what you mean. Tom Walton didn’t calculate dragon strengths as being different, at least not in “Being Dragons” or his other articles for MoS, where he cited two as both being around 45K.

  • it’s tough to get data on a precise range for dragon strengths. Most ranges are guesswork. They might vary, but it’s hard to tell.

  • longtime players disagree about whether they vary by dragon; many (including me) treat them as the same, given lack data showing otherwise.

  • Tom Walton wan’t any different. He wrote only that two dragons appeared to be the same – not 45K and 27K – and like the rest of us, he didn’t know if others varied.

Anyone have pdf’s giving light on dragon strengths?

#17

Originally posted by nanook

Anyone have pdf’s giving light on dragon strengths? [/b]

You bet. Fighting the WK on a more-or-less constant basis, the usual dragons in his area run a range of 20 to 30 k strength. These days I pile the troops with steel and assume my FP army will meet a dragon and assault the towns anyway with the survivors and the siege train. If the dragon is working at the top of his range the assault fails but I still have a cadre left. If the dragon is at the bottom of his scale the pop is destroyed.

#18

Due to exchanging pdfs with the opposition in one of my former games I was able to calculate the strength of Khuzadrepa to between 35.500 and 36.000
This was due to the fact of overwhelming opposition, so the armies facing the dragon actually survived.

Ulrik

#19

treebeard ents are worth about 16,000

#20

That was my experience with the Ents also.