Yes, I belief you did underestimate some of the DS nation as some of our actins were hidden from your side, we started early on in a compleatly different direction.
Maybe we should exchange files, you can definitly have mine after it is official.
Cheers,
Martin FK and quite unhappy that you didn´t wait two more turns
I’ve offered to exchange files before, but I have very little interest in those of a single nation. If anyone has the ability to forward an entire turn’s worth of files in a single zip for example, we can make an exchange. I’ll happily forward 17 unique zip files for this game if reciprocated.
X-Beora
A salute to our noble FP foes. Honest, all DS were secure. No pdf exchanges, please, I like it when folks can’t figure out what I am doing. But, I will give you a hint: The East Gate is the biggest FP trap around. With a little aforethought you can consume enormous FP resources and they will not be able to penetrate Mordor from the east (at least in grudge games).
[QUOTE=Mormegil;) the FP slipped on the much feared “banana skin of in-team-conflict”, AKA “the clash of egos”. ;)[/QUOTE]
Several management studies have demonstrated that peer pressure reduces analytical thinking. In my experience the easiest grudge team to beat is the fascist type, where everyone moves in lockstep. This crushes intiative and creativity.
Bernd,
As you said you entered the game in turn 11 so your experience was limited. The Free came on hard from the beginning. Yes Sauron aided us greatly as Brad B has said. Even if Barad Ungol had fallen however we would have had troops on it at turn end and in sufficient numbers to destroy any Gondor commanders and their troops who survived the attack, and then again there were the agents who were there as well. What we have discussed as the last real opportunity for your team came in turn 4 when the Eothraim for what ever reason reversed marched back out of the Northgate. After that although several attempts were made by the Free to break through on that front all were destroyed by a combination of dragons and agents in conjunction with a series of blocking armies. Had the Eothraim pushed on we would have been stretched indeed, as it was we were able to destroy in detail the Gondors big push then turn our attentions via agents on the Eothraim. We never perceived a serious threat in any other assault mounted at the North or West approaches to Mordor.
There were several posts made by members on your side that reinforced to us that our plans were working. One was Gixx’x post about sending armies outside Mordor. We had no reason to send troops from Mordor to any other front. Sending such troops as were maintained in Mordor would have made blocking and fixing your invading forces that much more complicated. We forced you to come to us and be destroyed. Another was the post about the Blind Sorcerer army and its wherabouts. The mere fact that we could hold it in reserve all that time indicates that our faith in our defenses in the North and West were well justified and that your intelligence gathering was less than what you needed to win. When your attacks came in through the Western approaches those forces so laboriously put together and marched were quickly dealt with by the starting Blind Sorcerer army, the Dragon Lord capital army and armies from the Dark Lts and Dog Lord that were the Mordor fire brigade. By using interior lines we could always place enough troops to get the job done it was much easier for us than you seem to realize.
On the financial side of the game. No, I’m sorry you were suffering from misinterpretation as well. Ed has already posted, no nation was under financial distress. Yes some had substantial deficits, but thanks to Mike Grazebrooks management of market buyouts each nation had sufficient reserves of materials to sell at a profit to provide at least two turns worth of expenses. Your side did nothing material to derail our program. I know that the Noldo bought Bronze probably by out bidding us, but his amount bought did cancel some of the product we bought it did not block us from profititing hugely from the Buyout. In my case I bought 1800+ units of the 4000 ordered but since I had 4000 in stores and the sell price went to 7 I was going to make a huge profit since my net asset cost was less than 1. This team is a selfless team so transfers happened with plenty of time to keep everyone off the financial tightrope. This may explain why you guys were so convinced that we were in trouble when actually we were not. Had you all followed the lead of the Noldo you might have caused some real problems for us financially in a couple of turns.
We also knew that you’re assessment of the weakness or elimination of our nations was very far from the mark. This indicated that you had no real information and were basing your assumptions on hope rather than facts. When Gixxer posted that we were down 1 nation and maybe 2 it caused us almost as much amusement as when the Eothraim archers committed suicide at the Rhudaur capital. No nation was close to being eliminated at that point and for you guys to insist that was the case indicated that you were completely in the dark (excuse the pun). We even spent some time trying to figure out from the turn reports which nations you could have thought were eliminated. We however saw that there were items of information in our pdfs such as battle reports, challenges issued by DS commanders, army reports and rumours that should have told you all nations were active. We understand that your reports may not have had all the different items of information we can see on ours but enough of it was transparent that we could not see how you could make so certain a claim. As it was it was completely wrong. Even Harad which you were pummeling pretty well at game end was not close to collapse and had plenty of good emissaries waiting take possession of real estate in South Gondor and the West.
Speaking of the West. Why did your team leave Cardolan and Arthedain twisting in the wind? In all those turns not one agent seems to have come back to try and counter our agent/emissary/dragon army offensive. We ScoChar at both capitals every turn. Killing whoever was there before they could issue any orders. At the same time we killed command characters off in the field with their armies. It was not hard for us to keep track of the characters with command skill we had identified and watch that list dwindle. Then you throw in the emissaries who with slow and steady erosion of loyalty took the capital of Arthedain even when Arthedain dropped their tax rate to zero to get the loyalty boost, a move that probably cost a commander to do so. This turn four emissaries were on 1614, seven on 1513 no Cardolan commanders present so we feel that one or both of those would have been taken, again intact to add to our tax base and lessen the amount of deficit. Add to that the fact that without a capital command order thousands of units of leather were taken at the Arthedain pops. Can you guys guess what commodity or commodities would be bought out this turn with the profits from last turn’s bronze buyout?
We know the situation was desperate for both Arthedain and Cardolan. Imlach and Aethelan would both have had assassination attempts on them this turn. That leaves as far as we can tell Pilates and her pitiful 200 troops in Mirkwood. A simple tracking of Pilates for a few turns should have told us where the new capital of Cardolan had been created. Morwen the lucky was also selected for assassination. So if you look at the west even if neither of these nations was eliminated this coming turn their ability to contribute to the military game your side chose to play would have been effectively eliminated. We know the situation was dire for Arthedain because two of its emissaries showed up at my capital this turn, along with a Northman emissary. Bad timing as they can do nothing but give away your plans to have the Northman army threaten my capital after Gildor and Dudannis killed all the characters in the army and the Northman finished their approach march. Unfortunately for you two assassins can only kill two command characters per turn. Not enough in this case and that assumes the Noldo and Northmen are willing to sit and become agent targets themselves next turn. If not they can’t refuse challenge and at least one of them dies this turn. If they are, well there is that Dragon Lord ability to Teleport and oh yes the Blind Sorcerer Sickness Squad that struck at Minas Arnor this turn. That and several agents who can bring their daggers to bear next turn. So what happens? Well this turn either one of your agents dies and the other assassinates Al Jeebra. Command is then assumed by Urgubal. So your army has to move on to my capital this turn exposing your commander to attack. You can’t threaten because the army is there. You can’t afford to capture the pop because that would reduce its size. Your Northman emissary who foolishly exposed himself a turn early gets killed by Spirit Mastery so no transfer sorry Arthedain. Agents do their work on your surviving agent and the army commander. What Tha shakes his head and leaves and Arthedain still needs a new capital. Hopefully Arthedain still has an emissary left to receive one.
It is all bad news for your side. Southern Gondor losts some valuable characters and yet another Major Town this turn and nothing is in place to stop that assault. You have moved an army to block me but I have a dragon so that will fail. Assassins are going to be on the Noldo capital this turn with a Sickness Squad and a scout, and a scry. Agents are on the Noldo pops now with intelligence gathering on what stores to sabotage. Cardolan probably loses two pops, Arthedain another. We feel your attack at Barad Paras will fail. The only good news is many of our agents killed all their targets and we need a turn to focus their strength. Next turn it would be back to work though.
Overkill here, yes certainly; however your post indicates that you guys still were putting it to us and wearing us down. The truth is that we were gaining strength character wise, economically, by population centers levels and by a superiority in both character numbers and quality of characters that you could not hope to match. What is true is that you guys were defiant and full of fight to the end and we salute you for that. The game was lost to you guys however and yes you were beaten, whether by combinations of your own failures to meld into an effective team, luck on our part with Sauron, or whatever you guys were beaten.
Respect to the Free Players and best of luck in your future games.
Brad Jenison
I would like to take the time to thank Gixxer and the rest of you for continuing to play after the mid-game issues. It’s nice not to have a game end that way and I appreciate the time and effort you guys put forth instead of just abandoning the game.
It appears that we will not be sharing turns given that I cannot provide Ed’s information. If anyone wants to discuss further or ask questions about what happened here or there or why did we or didn’t do “X” drop me a note.
That was my first time playing the WK and for the most part I’m pleased although there are a couple things I’d definitely do different\better next time. My emmissary development, failure to upgrade Carn Dum to a city and early dragon recruitment were all below average.
I’m not sure if stripping the fortifications off of 2004 & 2006 were a bad move or not…it helped financially and frankly I never lost them but for an orders error. My deficits were REALLY bad as I had transfered 2006 to Rhudaur a long time ago.
And a very fine lunch it was too (a good Scotsman NEVER turns down a free lunch). And I would certainly have enjoyed the beer had I not been driving and had my daughter with me.
Perhaps one day I’ll manage to cross the pond and reciprocate.
Cheers
Stuart
Brad,
your eagerness is adorable, I can see it seeping through every pore. Half of that spirit would have made our team unstoppable 
FTR we had three assassins at 3822. They were all we had, but they were there. But I guess you had a safe backup somewhere we wouldn’t expect, right? It’s a shame we can’t look at your files and enlighten ourselves about how bad we did underestimate you. Still, Ed seems to be afraid enough of us to hide his tactical genius. I am tempted to call that ridiculous, but then I am gentleman enough to respect that ungentlemanly behaviour
Uh, this horse is finally dead now - I admit I had a fair share in flogging it. I’ll leave the last words on this to somebody else, but if you see the need of reminding us that we were beaten, please look up “subtlety” in the dictionary first
Good luck in all your ventures!
Why would he need a back up? Do you mean back up commander for his army or a back up MT?
I ask because I don´t understand, assassins kill after emmies influence, so you 3 or 4 emmies won´t do anything this turn.
Sorry for my appearant ignorance, but our emmies are backed by armies with dragons and curse squads.
Or they go in one turn after we kill the army commanders.
Cheers,
Martin the confused
Martin, I think Bernard is feeling grumpy and resentful. Best to just drop everything, talking about it will make it worst.
Bernd
Destroying Barad Perras ? Possibly but it would be a lot closer than you might think. My army might be little but 80% of it is armoured heavy cavalry and both Abdahkil and Khathog were backing it up with combat magics. I was expecting you to take out the army and bring the NGo up from Lag-scara to go for the threat. Though my killers would have taken a heavy toll if you did.
Until a couple of turns ago the Ice King was a doner nation - with a deficit well under 5000. Our buyout success meant I was more often shipping product rather than receiving it. Puting 4000 troops in the field swelled my deficit and your combined army/emissary actions against my camps was beginning to bite though I was still comfortable. Sent the troops the wrong way too in a team spirited attempt to take Osgiliath ! Hukor at least could have blocked you north of Lag-scara.
Three killers then ? Same as the Ice King alone, though it helped that Gaurhir got my starting stealth bonus, and I have a couple more just a couple of steals short of snuffing easier targets. And I think that showed. By close of play we outnumbered you five or six to one there. It seems a telling statistic that I am one character short of full muster and didn’t lose a single one all game.
Best of luck against all opponents 'cept us.
Cheers
Stuart
Bernd it would not have been enough. Yes there were secure backups. Three agents all killers would not have been enough. I realize that you are trying to get a rise out of me. Let’s try this for subtle. It’s over. We don’t need to convince anyone how good we were in this game. The fact that you are conceding defeat says it all. As I posted earlier to one of your players we didn’t enter the game to impress you guys only to win and we have done that. It was my mission in this game to needle you and be an annoyance, to keep a preseence in Mirkwood and pick at you occassionally just as a distraction. That mission was accomplished. No, I didn’t conquer Mirkwood all by myself, but what reasonable player would expect that to happen? There have been postings from your team about Subpar play, in fact that was yours I think. That posting was not aimed at me but at the whole Team Simpson team. There have been postings that when one of your players once played the Dragon Lord his team conquered all of Mirkwood as an indication of how weak our team and my play in particular has been. All that is fine and good. Had that been part of our plan I am sure we could probably have managed it. As it was we had different priorities and I think it is the mark of success on how those priorities were met that comprise the final evaluation of success. Our priority was to win. we have won. Our next priority was to lose no nations, we have lost no nations. That was it. That sounds like a successful plan to me, maybe others such as yourself see it differently. I could run the numbers by you again but that was part of the rub it in your faces mission in the annoy portfolio.
Ed does not like to exchange pdf files because of operational security. His belief is that exchanging files gives you access to how we think, plan and execute our plans. Giving that information away might make you better opposition next time around. As you know paths cross often in this game. Ed would prefer you to figure things out for yourself and I tend to agree with him on that matter. No it is not a fear motivated thing. I believe I posted earlier that you really did have us concerned around turn 4 but after the destruction of the original Gondor invasion force we never felt that we were on the losing end of the game. Individual turns perhaps but we always felt that the game would end favorably for us. Now I realize you were not present in the game at that time but by the time you joined we felt momentum was on our side and would not slip away.
No need to sling mud now Bernd, that was for when the game was in progress. From what you say that is in the past now. Good luck to you and your team members in the past and I hope you have a happy holiday season.
Brad J
Bah. I was the One True King of Greenwood! Blather all you want about “operational security” and “role playing”. Long Live the King!
Beora
Veo, out of curiosity…why did you guys decide to stop this turn?
Was it the realization that nations weren’t out combined with the sudden reversal in the west? Something else? Just curious and thanks for even bothering to talk to us…unlike some of your teamates that talked a lot of smack and haven’t even offered a “good game”.
somebody called a vote, listed the reasons for the vote, and a vote was taken. the result was to end the game. lets put this baby to bed, cause nothing good can come from any further discussion. ( to paraphrase mr mills).
well played evil side, and adios.
SM
AD - the pieces on the board were the straw that broke the camels back. The attitudes of my allies reflect that relatively speaking, it was exactly that, a mere straw on the back of a strong, but severly tested throughout, camel.
God bless us everyone
Just a question for the ex-Noldo; Were you using your characters for bait???
I am trying to figure out what had occurred and get some closure to the game.
Since there is no exchange of turns, I don’t know exactly how badly (or not) the west was about to collapse due to our planning. (ie. Does cardolan have 3 commanders somewhere that we didn’t know about? Are the Noldo preparing a counter-invasion…off map MT’s blah blah blah) This was my 5th game of Middle Earth so please understand that I don’t have even a fraction of the games under my belt that some of the people in this game have so trying to improve is my primary motivator.
I’ve made several complimentary remarks about some of the better FP moves I was exposed to so I’m not trying to rub salt in wounds. My expression after Losing Mt. Gunderbad to threat early on would no doubt have made the woodmens laugh for a week… 
Yes, Gundabad was a little frustrating wasn’t it Witchie…!
You guys had the West pretty much summed up. Out of respect for Mullers wise position of “move on”, I’ll resist commenting further. Consider the possibility that the FP opposition in this reflects unrealistically poorly on many of it’s members abilities.
All the best.