Game 45

General
#161

Its been the Freeps diplomatic overtures that have sucked in this game.
Sending emails to the neutrals I’ve talked to declaring join us or die will
only lead to one thing. War! Even the nations who have attacked the DS
in co-ordination with the Freeps have suffered this slight. But then you
add a secret agreement by the DS and Freeps of a truce to concentrate
on the neutrals. For example my nation I have 3 DS armies marching into
W Mordor, all able to do so because of the truce. After the SK had
decimated the Mirkwood DS and was about to declare for the Freeps this
turn it can only be seen as a betrayal of the Freep allies who did so
much for the Freep cause. What makes it worse no warning was given
to their so called allies only the threats of join us or die.

Now Alan goes on about its not a betrayal, I had nothing to do with it,
why were you scrying my nation blah blah hickey dock tock.
On turn 9 with DS armies moving against the SK it was OBVIOUS the
Freep have taken the cowards way out and made a truce and betrayed
their allies. I was’nt 100% but to take make sure I scried and prepared
a plan for those responsible for the betrayal.

Alan as self confessed Captain of the Free and Ernie who pushed for
the truce; this I say to you; your nations will not survive the SK.

#162

Captain, me no… Theres a laugh. Co-ordinating mages or at least I was, the few that we have. And yes you are right it has nothing to do with me nor the NW. We weren’t the ones under attack although we were included in the discussions asked for our opinion which we gave. As for turn 9 DS moves, who cares I certainly don’t at least not now. We were a lot busier trying to sort out the mess down South with Tuatha and Occitan and retasking resources there. We didnt know however, the DS weren’t likely to tell us and for whatever reason you and I hadn’t emailed in a while. If I was captain of this team then a poor one am I, considering I didn’t know you’d declared FP, didn’t know you were being attacked and certainly didn’t know the DS had slipped through Mordor to your territory. Nope just checked only activity I can see on the maps that fdar South DS wise is an attack of Realm Of Darkness against Lorien Rangers. I might have a few mages Guy but Im not clairvoyant. You’re right its not a betrayal though. You guys are neutral and can attack whom you wish, its my fault as I have the curse of assumption. So I fight and I die. If I survive then I fight and die again. Replying is not neccesary however as this thread will not see another message of mine. I’ll play this game and contact those who I wish to contact through email alone…

#163

So another lie Alan? You mentioned in an email you were the Freeps captain…
And no, I hadnt declared FP but was about too. Ofcourse there is no chance
of that happening now.

And yes, the Freeps are guilty of a betrayal to SK. End of.

#164

Alan

You actually played with me long long ago… With Michael Welch… back when team games was called friends games with 3 x 5 card diplos… I have been off the Me radar for along time since my return I have almost exclusively been honing my skills in 4th ages where the full potential of the game can happen.
So my old friend brace yourself becuase my attack is going to hurt. I recommend you get a backup lined up now.

Terry

#165

This is just a GAME. Even if this alleged “betrayal” happened, such things happen in a game. In fact, the SK himself told the DS on turn 1;

“After finally giving this game a good couple of hours thought I’ve come to the conlusion I will join the DS on turn 7 if you guys have respected SK’s wishes. I will in the next 6 turns prepare to attack the Horadrim and White Temple.”

We respected the SK’s wishes (which consisted of not camping in a rather LARGE area around the SK, and attacking the Horadrim). The SK then launched an unprovoked attack on a DS nation.

This type of behavior might be seen by most as a “betrayal”, though the SK probably thought it simply prudent under the circumstances. And if a later SK promise to the FP that he would join them at some later point wasn’t received with a lot of confidence, perhaps his earlier diplomatic reversal might have had a small part to play in any lack of confidence in the SK’s sincerety.

In any event, it is turn 10, and there are several neutral nations attacking both the FP and DS, yet NONE of them have changed allegiance. In fact, at the time that the FP & DS had concluded that there must be a neutral alliance, all but one of those neutrals refused to even commit to join either side. (The “one” being the SK, who had in fact committed to join BOTH sides, at one time or another.) Regardless of whether or not a neutral alliance actually exists, these factors in and of themselves are highly suspicious, and good cause to believe in the existance of such an alliance.

So, the FP and DS had good reason to believe there was a neutral alliance, and took what we believed were prudent actions based on that belief. If we were wrong, then the neutrals can prove us all fools and rectify the situation by declaring for whichever allegiance they had intended on joining. If we were right, then everyone concerned should just accept that the jig is up, admit that the deception didn’t work, and get on with the game.

And if we were right and the neutral alliance wants to use the FP/DS agreement as an ‘excuse’ to stay neutral, then that’s fine too. But I personally think it would be nice if everyone could avoid terms like “betrayal” and “backstabbing”. As far as I can see, there was no malice on anyone’s part.

No hard feelings. Let’s just have some fun.

Mike Mulka
45-Obsidian Order

#166

Mike,

Nothing like a good ol rant! Ofcourse its a game but the playacting is what
I find interesting after 14 years of ME. Now let’s examine SK’s ‘betrayal’
of the DS. Yes, on turn 1 joining you guys looked the best option and
a quick decision was made. BUT after having to brew a cup of coffee
and forced to read a long essay every time I recieved one of your emails
was very off putting. Did I really want to spend rest of the game reading
obnoxious neverending emails??? Not only that but a 2 page list of rules
for joining the DS showed me how much FUN you guys would be.

In fact on turn 7 I imformed your team honestly about my apprehensions
and reasons for not joining the team and went as far to say the FP’s
were ahead in winning the SK friendship… A couple of your players
attempted positive diplomacy after that but the signs were given to
the DS of a possible impeding DS attack. You guys lost the SK friendship
through personal contact which is as important as game actions.

Sometimes in life and ME people’s paranoia creates exactly what they
are most fearful off. There are countless examples but I wouldnt want to
bore everyone with a long post. Do you guys really think a neutral would
join a team who threatens it so??? No self respecting player would.
At this moment there is no neutral team but you guys are intent on
creating one.

Guy Roppa

#167

Some two to three days before the Rangers and Valinor decided to attack me, I had posted a declaration. I had thought that the coordination I had with the Free would have been enough, but I posted to the forum as well following my attack on the RoD.

I see now an alliance between the Free and DS. I didn’t want to join the DS because of their refusal to offer the one thing I wanted…information…And whats funny about that is the DS would say, “Just let us know what it will take for you to join us.” and I would reply…“INFORMATION.” Then they would say ask again, “Just let us know…blah blah blah.” and I say “INFORMATION.”…Then they would ask…well you get the picture.

The Free, or rather the Rangers did offer information and I thought we had a pretty good deal going.

But I was wrong…so, I will fight against all enemies where I find them.

I offer a challenge to the Rangers. Fight me one on one…or is your alliance running your nation!!!

Imperia

#168

So now the dilemna has reached Tuatha DeDanu finally.
After attacking the freeps at the DS request I am in a quandary once more.
I can honor a decision made by the recruiting DS team without my knowledge nor consent and stop the actions they had asked (And paid) me to do and leave WT in peace, or I can somehow alienate both alliances and continue to do the DS work for them by attacking a freep nation.
Strange days indeed when my choices are join the DS and leave the freeps in peace, or continue to attack a FP nation and be at odds with the team that asked me to do so.
Somehow this does not make a lick of sense to me either as an independant nor as a DS.
Just so I get the situation clear…
I can have peace with the FP nation I attacked if I turn DS now and STOP attacking the sworn enemies of DS?
And if I do cease and desist from attacking the White Temple does this mean Ernie would return the favor? Or will I then be facing his armies and South Kingdom armies also?
So I have 2-4 choices ahead of me none of which seem based in reason. I can
1: Join the freeps whom I have been attacking and hope they forgive my attack.
2: Join the DS, a team which it seems have been working with my enemy for the last few turns while I have been sharing my plans with them and they for all I know have fwd those plans directly to the enemy
3: Listen to the pleas of mankind and rally behind them, thereby sealing that I will have enemies on all sides.
4: Give this game up as rubbish and spend my money in more productive ways.
None of these sound attractive in the least bit.
So it seems the message is clear from the DS. Despite the fact you have been cooperating with us and sharing information you need to join us now and divulge all my intell or die.
The message from the freeps is this (correct me if I am wrong). Despite the scarce diplos sent to your nation from our team, and you having been paid by DS we suspect the reason you accepted DS resources and attacked us was not to serve the DS but rather to serve some dark clandestine plan by neuts. You can save yourself now by joining us and divulging all your intell or by joining sworn enemies of the freeps and go DS and somehow hope the freeps include my nation in the truce. :confused:
And yet some parties still believe this is not a join us or die ultimatum?
Like others have said this is only a game. So if in real life one would find ‘Your either with us or against us’ offensive how should I take it in game? Do you really think I would betray my ethics in a game if I won’t do so in real life when the stakes are much higher?
I have seen what happens when knee jerk reactions cause teams to attack independant neutrals. Those neuts tend to respond as anyone would to a threat, then fall one by one because they had little or no time to form a team. The remaining players are left to pick out some excuse of a victory out of the shambles left. (This would appear to be the DS in this case) And yet the freeps have pioneered this set of events if I am correct…irony at it’s best. Perhaps the freeps should have discussed a while longer.
Quite honestly the longer I weigh the situation the more attractive option 4 seems. Nothing personal of course. :wink:
Maybe another neutral would be willing to run my nation in lieu of me. Guy, Rollin, any takers?
If someone could please explain to me how the Tuatha DeDanu could possibly benefit from any decision made by all means, I am all ears.
-Tuatha DeDanu

PS: And when all this is over I bet the neutrals will be blamed AGAIN for a muffed 4th Age scenario. I mean asking to remain neutral for the beginning game must be a plot right?

#169

Hey Joe,

I am not going to pretend that this game makes “a lick of sense”. It is just war and the confusion that comes with it. I will respond on a few points you have noted though to clarify for you as you requested.

On the issue of the DS requesting you to attack the WT. I am more of the belief that you chose this option as the best one available to you because the Freeps were not talking and you were not willing to be blitzed. We were only too happy to meet your price for the attack against WT though to be honest Ricard has already played that card and was going to attack the GO irregardless of your attack against the WT. Though we had hoped that the two of you would be a match for WT and GO while we focused efforts against the Horadrim in Mordor. And yes, I fully intended to send troops to your caused against the WT, alas the WT beat me to the march with 3800 HI in my yard faster than I could march to his. So my troops became tied up in self defense. So to say the DS requested this attack of you and you were merely being obliging is a touch misleading. You were paid for and we did not force any talk of allegiance on you any more than was obligatory. The fact that you and Ricard both refused to comment on which side you would join despite the attack on the Free made some folks nervous…a knee jerk reaction I believe you called it.
On the issue of the “truce” with the Freep and your choices…IF you did change your icon yes the battling with WT would cease and yes WT would not continue to fight you either. That would of course require a change of allegiance now rather than waiting til the Freep retaliation becomes too much and then one changes out of preservation.
On the issue of sharing your intel with the Freeps, none of that to my knowledge has been done. Whatever missives you have sent were not detailed to where they would be of benefit to share with the Free. Do not take offense to this, it is merely a statement.
If you choose not to join the DS, who had paid for your attack against the WT, then we the DS are left to wonder what you intended to do afterwards? Were you going to go DS or remain neutral as part of something else? We had no indication from any neutral other than Guy that a DS ally was waiting to blossom. So we made a choice. Perhaps we were wrong. Who the hell knows.
If you choose to drop, I can only say that I hope this does not taint your perceptions of me or my teammates in this game. I would hope you are mature and can see that this is a game to be played for fun and it in no way speaks to the character of a real person who pays to play and have a good time with it. If one chooses to assign their personal attributes to an “in game persona”, the good lord help the guys who cry for blood of elves and dwarves. In fact, the good Lord help the folks who aspire to be dwarves!!

All the best Joe: I look forward to crossing swords with you in the future, or even better to walk the same mile as allies against impeccable foes.
jerry

#170

Oh pish posh…the Free and DS are aligned. And SO WHAT if all the Neutral nations split this turn or next. Then the DS and Free attack each other and the game is afoot.

So what if the DS and Free destroy the Neutrals…it will still be a DS vs. Free game.

The end result will be the Free fighting the DS…there is NO benefit of destroying the neutral nations other than to give the most endangered side time to regroup. Because who says that all the resources of the Free will be used against the neutral nations and that they won’t sit back with all or part of their forces/characters and build. Who is to say the DS won’t do the same thing?

Because of this alliance…I’m not sure what the heck to do. If I join the Free, then it will look like I caved in to their attacks. If I join the DS, then I join the team who had no desire or intention to recruit me. If I stay neutral, I will be defeated. Guess I could drop like Joe wrote above and try again in another FA game…I just don’t like doing that.

Imperia

#171

Vicelords (Jerry)…let’s hope you don’t have Middle Earth mirror YOUR real life, what with all the “Halls of Opium” “Dens of whores”:eek: etc…I’m praying for ya Bro…LOL.

Better change your posts if want Little J to play:) …Rollin

#172

Jerry thanks for your words and I hold no personal exceptions toward you. I enjoy our banter, and enjoy playing with Mike greatly. I had hoped to be an ally in this game, but hey I can enjoy defeating you like in game 40 just as much. lol :wink:
As for the game, it sounds like some DS alarms were raised, and when the freeps realizing their desperate situation, approached you about a truce you took them up on it.
This will allow the freeps time to regroup and fight you when they are not looking at being eliminated. Kudos to the freeps for such survival instincts.
But now you ask me to honor a truce that did not include me nor was I advised of. I mean it is my nation and no one else that will have to face a strong White Temple just over the bridge later rather than kill him now.
Why would the DS wish me to honor a truce that spares freeps & I had nothing to do with in order to save the enemy for another day?
If I changed icons today it seems fit I can continue to eliminate my/our enemy without fear of retribution from an ‘ally’.
I really don’t feel like just rolling over and stopping my plans to kill White Temple just because of paranoid deals made by others and freep survival cries.
And the excuse that neutrals wished to remain neutral does not wash either. What is so unreasonable about a neutral wishing to remain so for the alloted time he is allowed by rules?
Reasons and excuses aside.
You are asking me at gunpoint to stop attacking a shared enemy, your closest enemy, be mature and just deal with it.
Well I am asking you to take my rebounding ‘Are you outta your mind?’ Be mature and deal with it. I know I can be difficult to the extreme, but if I am to join any team it will be out of mutual respect and cooperation. I received the best diplos from the DS, so I leaned that way. When I acted out of prudent opportunity, and your team knew well in advance it was seen as a plot with Occitan and other far away neuts. Surely one can understand my dislike for the current situation.
And to say, that if Joe does not like being force fed pablum then it just goes to prove he was guilty all along, really makes little sense either. (Maybe that is why the impotent UN still thinks nations cares for what they want. They do nothing to protect a nation, then ask them to welcome their interferance when that nation moves to protect itself) So I think I will take my full option and not make any sudden changes to my plan. I will capture the WT capital, I will keep my icon the same for as long as I wish, and it will be the actions of your team that will dictate whether it remains that way thru game or changes on turn 12…and by God not one second before then! I think it would be prudent for the DS to allow me this one reprieve and not force my hand any further.
So please be patient, be mature, and if as a result of this I find myself victim to DS actions I will then ask you deal with one more enemy. :mad:
And yes, a neutral alliance was discussed in early game as I am sure it always will be with such numbers. It was decided then to be a long shot and would need all nations commited to work. When the solid and stalwart North Kingdom (note sarcasm) thought it impossible, discussion fell by the wayside. I mean if NK or SK for that matter could have stayed set on ANY decision maybe we would not be here today.

#173

Mighty Joe the Younger!!

Settle down Sunshine! lol

I thank you for the post and explaining your vision of how things have developed. When this tragedy is put to rest, I will tell you the rest of the story. hehehe

If we end up at war with one another, then hopefully the outcome will be better than game 40…what nation are you by the way? The Uruk Hai?

Unto the Imperia,

Little J will along in the next Third Age game I play. Will probably be a Freep position as they are easier to learn game mechanics with. I will be sending in at the end of Game 40 I guess. And, real life vs. in game persona…yeah, the Opium is a little too expensive but the women really take the cake. All that nagging while they fill their saddle bags that pass for hips in Middle Earth is more than any ruler to be can withstand.

Let’s get on with the killin’ already. I say kill em all and let the UN worry about sanctions.

jerry
:stuck_out_tongue:

#174

The Rangers have accepted my offer of a one on one fight! Since the Free and DS have each other’s emails…as only a good alliance should…then verify if you wish. I will not make any new offensive actions that I am not already engaged in this turn. I have an army engaged by the Realm of Darkness and will act against that army, but no further army actions against the RoD or any other DS/FP nation.

Imperia

#175

Hello here

I haven’t written in the Forum in this post from ages. I believe this game is now under quite a surrealistic scenario totally out of the common sense.
I have a pact with DS to attack FP. So far all has been fulfilled. Now that still neutral I confirm to DS that I will go on with my assault on FP, DS answer that I should stop killing FP they already supported me to attack and assault neutral nations.

That is an orc saying a human that he should stop killing Dwarves and Elves and begin to help them.

I believe that the reputation of serious players such as White Temple or Obsidian Order have heavily misunderstood the aim of the game. I would never believe that things could reach this point, It is the right of the Neutrals to follow the path they decide FP DS or Neutrality.
An alliegance between Elves an Orcs it is against any reason, against any common sense, against the aim of the game and against indeed Tolkien itself.
I’m seriously considering to drop the game, not because I can be kicked out (because no one can even hurt me now), but because I seen the last thing I could see. DS and FP in the same side.

FP and DS should consider to go on with this game, which is a wargame but over all it is Tolkien’s world.
I would understand FP and DS fighting Neutrals separatelly, but I don’t understand how a DS and a FP in the dame area pact peace to attack a neutral which is far away.

My question is, are you playing Middle Earth? or are you playing another wargame?

Ricard
Occitan Kingdom.-

#176

The Lord of the Blackwater Guild took a look over the lands and grinned at the Elves fighting alongside Orc. He then saw an “exodus of light” and saw everything had become grey. No more lines to be crossed for right or wrong or this alliance or that. In times like these, one must do what must be done.

Chronicles of the Guild

#177

FP icons everywhere alas except in the SK?

Adam
DN

#178

Hi there,

Certain, It seems many neutrals have joined FP cause, this is the effect of Ds diplo to sink Nuetrals. Now I see clearly that FP have taken advantage of DS intent to isolate Neutrals. Good point FP, I’m really considering to give full support to FP now. I will wait for all aliegances diplomats to consider the situation and take a decision.

Ricard
Occitan Kingdom.-

#179

Yes, there are Freep icons in SK… :wink: Isn’t 4000hc and 6000hi enough
to take out the SK? I forget, Obsidian lost 3000hi this turn so that narrows
the field down a bit.

Guy Roppa

#180

So what neutrals joined the FP cause??