Game 70 ended

General
#1

I just received an email that game 70 ended.

First, awesome job by the Free people, including the last few turns. Incredible job by Northern Gondor (Dave?), probably the best I have seen it played.

Will post some thoughts later on the game.

Against decent opponents, it looks to me like the free have the advantage. I am not trying to start a new debate, but the free crushed the dark servants last game, and assuming we basically switched sides and had roughly the same people, the free won the game again.

Tim Huiatt

#2

Congratulations to my fellow Free People; well battled by Servants of Sauron.

I played the Nations of Noldo/Harad and I really enjoyed the contest. With the exception of Imladris where I improved, fortified early, hired and rercruited at until the fall or Rhuadaur, my actions were concentrated in the south. Had Imladris not been so heavily defended it would have fallen to a DrLd army on turn 5.

I had an Epic battle where the QA and Corsair were aggressive with armies early. I think the turning issue in the south was using the mantle mainly, also blocking actions and even an overrun to delay the Corsair while cavalry attacked the QA. They captured/burned all the QA starting pops except 2135 and a few others also…

When the cavalry returned to the Corsair front his defence was likely being stretched by SG assaults. Emmy actions ended with Eothraim holding 2039, while my armies burned/secured 2236, 2337, 2437, 2438. This result contributed to the downfall of the Corsairs while my only major action against the DrLd was to kill Khamul. He died in a PC issued by Cirdan…

Other than this I sent some supplies to the Dwarf and Northmen, but nothing much of note. Harad was in ruins and needed Noldo support to keep the assault in the south going.

Lastly I’d like to thank all people who played their nations out until the games conclusion and for the honorable concession of the DS.

Regards

Mike
No/Ha G70

#3

Marty and me played the DogL/BS combo.

I literally played BS ;o)

Probably my worst game in years, though I succeeded in picking up some arties and bringing a curse squad on the way, I made a few wrong decisions and set false priorities. This was the first game in which I EVER bankrupted. We edged along financially the whole game. I don’t know if staying in longer would have made a difference, but I tend to think that it wouldn’t.

I second Tim that the FP have a GB advantage. The DS can only play their full potential if the cooperate closely, while the FP can play the military game with much less cooperation. I have played three GB games in a row and its 2/1 for the FP now. While the DS victory (when Marty and me where Cor/DrgL) was very close and also very lucky, the two FP victories seemed relatively clear. I played EO in the last GB and raided through eastern mordor like a hot knife through butter. Economy is the worst problem for the DS. With no option to organize buyouts and FPs which keep their treasuries low it’s hard to fill the char roster and keep armies for defence.

One needs to look at the big picture, but should the FP indeed have a better win ratio in the GB games, a very easy way to balance this would be adding the easterlings to the DS… too powerful?:cool:

#4

I played Southern Gondor/Eothraim. Just got off the phone with my brother. He played Corsairs/Dragon Lord. I was pretty sure from game play that he was either Corsairs/Dragon Lord or QA/Fire King based on game actions. I thought he was QA/Fire King becasue I would have never thought he would get eliminated that late in the game.

Kind of fun to eliminate my brother in the game.

Tim Huiatt

#5

One needs to look at the big picture, but should the FP indeed have a better win ratio in the GB games, a very easy way to balance this would be adding the easterlings to the DS… too powerful?

It’s roughly 50/50 (with 14 wins for FP 15 for DS) for clarity. That’s including all the new data (including game 70) for reference.

Clint (GM)

#6

I don’t consider the balance issue a big problem…

NW DS’s have an easier time, when the FP can’t co-orperate, and with Rhudaur as DS from the start.

But true, Mordor DS have a really hard time against EO combining all cav armies, or a competent NG who recruits big-time.

Overall I think the FP win on advantages, but I’d still pick DS any day, due to the fun character game :slight_smile:

#7

Many people don’t like southern gondor eothraim combo. I have heard that the eothraim should not combine all their cav armies into one army, but I did it and took down the Dog Lord capital and greatly reduced the pressure on the Eothraim. I think I took the capital on turn six or seven. If southern gondor names emissaries early, he becomes an absolute economic monster.

I basically manipulated the market with my two nations every three to four turns.

tim

#8

I played NG/Duns in this game. I gotta say it was really fun.

Overall Strategy:
Duns focused on Command/Agent & Agent characters with a stable of emmies
NG focused on Command/Agent & Emmies. NG characters who came in with stealth were given capital duty as they couldn’t be easily identified & whacked.
Duns sent forces north to help take out Rhu, but then left WK to CA/Arth and focused on Mordor.

Early Game:
Duns combined & sent all Cav to help vs. Mordor. Dun foot waited one turn then went north against Rhu
NG positioned for Osgiliath thrust & to get palantirs onto 2 Dun mages
Concept was that Dun mages would learn 415 & with 2 palantirs, I’d have 4 awesome scrys per turn of central mordor so that I always knew what was going on there. This cost some orders early but was huge win over the course of the game.
Other big idea was for NG to transfer all command arties onto Dun cav who’d move evasively into Mordor. That worked great! Then, it was big decision time for Dun cav: Attack DkL’s capital? Or go to the underbelly of Mordor?
I Ignored 3423 (which DkL wisely had bumped to city & built tower, so lucky decision on my part) & went into Mordor. I kept moving evasively using the command arties and as such any attempts to block my cav was mostly unsuccessful. The Dun cav + command arties was pretty invincible inside central Mordor. There were no dragons yet. Took out 3627 (helped BS to bankrupt), 3626, 3528, 3428, 3629 (which was Rhu capital and that caused him to bankrupt - Duns & CA were on his old MT in the north about the same time), 3630 (caused CL to die).

The game progressed and NG fought a holding battle with FK at Ithil pass. I never devoted huge resources here. Rather I wanted to occupy FK’s attention & to keep him busy in Ithil. In the meantime, NG & Duns built up southern Mordor pop centers. NG had city at 3429, MT at 3929 both used actively as recruiting bases (despite constant K/A of commanders at 3429 by DS agents). Duns used 3629 & 3630 as recruiting (both only towns). DkL was well played and sent armies with dragons that caused me a lot of headaches. But despite all of the dragons and agents, NG/Duns managed to continue to pump characters in and armies out. The latter game saw 3426 (FK backup) destroyed, 3326 (DkL town) taken by NG emmies, and 3624 (dog capital) captured. It was much slower going now as NW Mordor had started to pay a lot of attention to what I was doing. Thankfully by this point, Sinda & SG were really starting to put the pressure on NW Mordor from the outside, so I think that was the straw that broke the will of the DS camel’s back and caused them to vote to resign. Dog was still in with capital at 2912 after 3624 taken.

QA was being a pest at the end by taking two NG pops with emmies(2926 & 2927). This turn, NG/Dun emmies should retake 2927 which had been transferred to FK.

Thanks to everyone on FP side! I think you guys all must have played very well, but I don’t know details as all my recon ability was focused on Mordor each turn to facilitate NG & Duns using southern Mordor as recruiting base.

DS - great recruiting of dragons. I counted 5 dragons in your armies last turn alone! yikes! And that is just the armies I was looking at! Special kudos to DkL who was biggest pain in my side. FK/QA also was a pain. QA did nice move to capture NG fleet early and the emmie action late was a pain. FK held Ithil the entire game.

I’ll post follow-on regarding DS/FP balance.

cheers,
Dave

#9

Tim, great job taking Dog capital early! And I saw what you were doing at 3822 and in NG backfield. I knew you were coming in to provide big pressure on NW mordor from outside while I was doing so from the insider. Nice teamwork even if we could only diplo every 5 turns!

#10

Clint, which nations did you play? I would bet you were DkL… Or maybe Drew was DkL…

#11

So, I don’t think there’s a huge imbalance. I do think there is less margin for error on the part of the DS. If key positions aren’t played to full potential, then the DS are at a severe disadvantage. But the same can be said for the FP…

Marty’s right that DS can’t share intel (needed for character war) while FP can share military long term strategy. That and the economy does give some advantage to FP. However, it’s the same as it ever was: If DS can keep Mordor intact, they will win in the 2nd half of the game through character war.

Even in this game (70) where NG/Duns really put a lot of emphasis on agents & emmies, I was never going to be competitive on agents. The DS were whacking me left & right and slicing right through A60+ GrdChars like hot knives through butter. And that’s after I had killed the CL!

So, I think that we won this game because we were lucky enough to kill the CL early. Yes, we played well in much of the board, but getting the CL dead early really gives the FP the nod. If the CL was in this game all along, it would have been much different and we’d not be discussing the outcome of this game for quite a while to come…

Dave

#12

As soon as the cloud lord was elminated I suspected Dave was playing Northern Gondor duns. Plus your turn you missed the communications you were super busy in real life.

Awesome job Dave.

tim

#13

Tim,
I never missed a diplo. here are my diplos for each turn.

Turn 6:
NG: Holding 3024 vs. all starting CL, FK; SG helping; Anyone please send Timber to 2927; No K/A yet; No Dragons;

Duns: Starting Cav @ 3526 under Enion; going against FK backup, then CL pops; EO, you coming in from East? Vs Rhudaur, captured 2010, 2109 T6, hopefully 2208 T7.

Turn 11:
Diplo, GB 70 for the FP

Duns:
Captured 3629, bankrupted Rhu;
CL recapturing 3629 now
Destroying 3627, Capturing 3428
3528 is FK camp
3626, 3427 next
NG:
Thanks SG
New Ithil Thrust underway
TI to 2924

T16:
Diplo for Game 70, Turn 16

Duns
Captured: 3629, 3630
Destroyed: 3427, 3428, 3627, 3626, 3528
Plan: 3624 Turn 19, then 3426
Ignoring NW

NG
Emmies taking 3929
Improving 3429 recruiting
Timber?

Please assass Ji Indur 3024

T21:
FP (NG/Dun) Diplo for Game 70, Turn 21

FK Major Towns: 3324, 3426, 4236
Dog: 3624
DkL: 3423, 3306
WK: 3622, other?

Duns own 3629, 3630: recruiting both
NG own 3429, 3929: recruiting both
DkL only Servant defending Mordor interior
IK defending north gate, FK Ithil
Sinda – attack Mordor!
NG lost 3116, 3316, 3716, 3028, 3024 this turn?

I hadn’t written T26 yet… :slight_smile: Note that by T26, IK, WK, and DkL were all defending Mordor interior…

#14

Dave, 99% sure this diplo was never sent
Diplo, GB 70 for the FP

Duns:
Captured 3629, bankrupted Rhu;
CL recapturing 3629 now
Destroying 3627, Capturing 3428
3528 is FK camp
3626, 3427 next
NG:
Thanks SG
New Ithil Thrust underway
TI to 2924

I never saw this diplo until today

Plus, what did I do to warrant a thanks. Lost all my troops on turn four to nine to assassination of three characters, then lost the next wave to a cloud lord dragon.

No biggie, I just really thought that the Northern Gondor going after the Cloud lord would have been you Dave. It could have been anyone, but I assumed you would be the one as I also assumed you played the free nations.

Overall, my vote for best played position goes to northern gondor.

Tony caused his own demise. He convinced me to name an agent turn one with southern gondor. So I did, Then the dark lieutenants showed up in the eothraim capital with the cloak of the abyss so I stole it with a 35 agent. Put it on my southern gondor agent with ring of impersonation and then did character warfare against corsairs.

To all the free people. Non coordinated and we still managed to crash the market better than most grudge games.

Clint, who did you play. Kim Anderson, who did you play. Drew, who did you play?

tim

#15

Well, the way diplos work, you never know if they send yours out or not? I sent them all in…

And thank you for the kudos Tim! I think the whole FP must have played very well for us to have come to this result. I am curious what happened to WM as he was first out. I’m guessing Buhr Flambe with DragonL/Rhu assist?

#16

Hi guys,

Congrats to the FP for a well played game.

I played LR/IK in this game and I must say I was never really able to get either position of the ground, never had enough gold in the treasury to name a full character roster for instance.
Admittedly I was a little unfocussed due through real life issues somewhere between turns 3 and 10 and recall making some bad choices at the time that were the cause of later economic struggles.
LR at several times during the game was unable to hire a new army due to lack of finances.
I also recall NM did a good job of raiding my camps at the start which did not help at all and later on the dwarves were always there to destroy my PC’s in the misties.

Then my agents always ended up arriving after I noticed the attack and in the wrong hex, it seemed like most the game I was always reacting and never was pro-active and if I was it was of very little impact.
Dragons disappeared at crucial times, artifacts I located were gone by the time I got there and when located again were held by other DS, agents failed to give me names when scouting for characters, it just never went right for me in this game. But I am very willing to give it another shot if you guys are up for another game ;-).

Cheers,
Alain

#17

a ratio of 14/15 is indeed balanced. one must take heed that personal experiences do not bias this view too much :smiley:
Dave is right, it is the key positions that matter. still I think that in a game of skilled players (and I would consider our GB-no-drop-player pool as such), the FP got the edge.

@ Dave - I think your cav move into mordor was the game breaker, kudos to that. seems that I am the tragic figure in this. on t 8, I had 2400 hi at 3627 - to counter any inner-mordor attack. but instead of moving the force to 3629, which would have saved not only the Rhu backup but also 3627, I made some futile blocking moves and finally retired the army on t 10 because I simply couldn’t afford it, just the same turn you came to 3627 - sigh!

@ Tim - both EO strategies can work. in GB 63, I sent the majority of my cav to the backdoor, while just containing Morannon. I burned every single DS pop in the mordor plains, which was at least equally effective.

#18

Bernd,

I agree, either strategy with the Eothraim can work. I do remember on turn one I took a gamble and left all the dog lord cav alive on 3316 hoping all three Dwarven armies that had moved to 3612 would come down to 3316. Thankfully they did so my gamble paid off.

Thanks Dwarves for your two initial moves as they helped my overall strategy tremendously.

tim

#19

Hi,

WiK/DaL here….

At last this awful game ended. Despite my aggressive WiK style in the start which managed to knock out Woodmen very early when I destroyed his capital, I was shocked to see how the defense of inner Mordor was handled by CL, BlS and DoL. I cant believe how a single Duns HC army can be allowed to move around for 7-8 turn and burn centers at will. Eventually I had to send DaL dragon armies down to deal with the problem myself even though front Mordor was heavily attacked as well. So Ulf Dilan first met his fate and the death of his army in Mordor at turn 20 when he met Gothmog.

When BlS collapsed after losing 3727 pretty early, I was shocked and could see the writing on the wall. And when CL collapsed some time later, it was just a matter of time. Its still a riddle for me how BlS can collapse after losing a MT, which he did nothing to defend. I have never played in any game where the loss of 3727 meant the death of BlS, he did name emis from start right ? If I move out the entire starting BlS army towards the Ithril pass initially, then I AT LEAST will stay with a token army and build tower/fort quickly. And I will certainly also move out with blocking MA armies and build camp/towers to slow then the FP backdoor assault which almost always arrives in these games…

I survived with WiK throughout the entire game even though the WiK area was defeated rather quickly, because I chose to direct all resources towards Woodmen. And believe me, FP spend a lot of resources to knock out WiK especially the turn where I had to transfer backup. The survival of WiK succeeded because I build up a power economy with DaL who could support WiK quickly. If not BlS is build up as a power economy and his centers have big welcome signs for FP, then this is indeed very bad for DS. In my eyes BlS are responsible for the defense of back Mordor. After BlS collapsed CL naturally had to follow soon after when all his towns/villages was burnt as well. If the Duns army had been cached and destroyed early on, the game would have been completely different.

Yes a lot of frustration, but I guess that’s always normal for the losing side :slight_smile: At least I had my fun wiping out characters and annoying Dwarves/NM, who I’m almost convinced was played by Clint…these moves just had “Clint” written all over it :slight_smile: RoW and Dwarven ring of power in the same company is always fun. Sad that I don’t get this last turn processed, which would have ended the lives of a lot of Sinda characters as well….

But in any case congratulation to FP for a well deserved win, clearly much better play than DS. Especially NG/Duns was played right after the book and a major reason why the balance quickly tipped towards FP.

Also I think this is the last time I play DS in a Power GB game starting up around wintertime…a clear FP advantage in my opinion, especially if FP generally are all skilled and pursue an aggressive search-and-destroy style.

This is also my second power GB game in a row where FP wins. I think there is a large difference between normal GB games where the skill of the players is very random and power GB games where all players are supposed to be very skilled and experienced. DS is very dependent on coordination. In a mixed GB game DS can compensate for this by the fact that on average there will at least be one or some area in the game where the DS player(s) is much more skilled/experienced by the FP player(s). So either WiK/Rhd kicks ass and take control over less experienced Cardolan/Arthedain players, or the same happens in the Woodmen area, the Eot/NM complex or the Corsairs area. So even though FP are doing good in the other areas, then DS gain a much needed breader if one area is completely conquered by DS, so that person can start helping his other allied and FP needs to direct resources towards this area. Now if ALL FP are skilled/experienced and don’t make the usual beginner mistakes, then DS will have a very hard time in taking control in any area at all initially when they cant coordinate, no matter how skilled the DS are, and FP should take the advantage in all areas initially. So my opinion is that in a Power GB game where the players are equally skilled, FP should win at least two out of three games, especially if the game start up in wintertime which is REALLY tough for DS.

But this is not an excuse for losing this game, the FP was much better and with the best players I guess :slight_smile:

BR
Kim Andersen

#20

@ kim - I can understand your frustration and I am willing to take some of the responsibility for this. but there was also a good deal of bad luck involved in this, see my post above. My main army was defending the back gate. I tried to block an eventual cav move on 3822, and when none came, I burned 4217, that seemed the best I could do. and I was willing to defend 3627, but OTOH, hiring that 2400 HI army severely hampered my economy. though I had named enough emmies, in the last turns I wasn’t able to place camps, let alone name more characters. marty couldn’t help out and from the diplos I gathered that others (CL) were also screaming for cash. it’s a shame to ask for money as BS, I would say :rolleyes:
economics were simply too tight in this game - so you are right about winter.