To the waring nations of Middle Earth. Let it be known that the Rhudar and Dunlendings have come to a treaty of non-agression and mutual protection. An attack against one will be an attack against both until such time that our decisions are made in action or declaration.
Gry of Rhudar, Emissary to Dunland
Things are gonna start getting bloody in Angmar! The next few turns will be interesting.
Andrew, Gry of Rhudar
Rhudaur, do tell, do tell! We in the South are starved for news.
Scott
Corsairs
South Gondor,
I can understand one bump but two? I have lost four orders because of you now. You had better allow me to sail my boats home or I will consider it an act of war! I do not like the way things are going here. I sent out a post telling you my plans and still we have a problem? What part don’t you get? Woodmen you had better explain the facts off a pissed off Doug to your ally or I will burn his Pops to the damn ground. Is this how you respect the neutrals? If you want me evil just tell me and I won’t waste anyones time any longer. I guess you do not really want to recruit me since I haven’t heard anything at all from the Gondors. OK Scott let’s get them sails filled and see whether they think we are punks to be ignored. I just do not understand this game play at all.
Doug
We do note, with some chagrin, that Southern Gondor as yet has sent no word to this gathering of envoys. A word or two from said nation would do much to assuage mounting tensions. Mayhap that nation’s allies could persuade its leader to send us a representative? We hold sincerely to this hope.
Scott
Corsairs
That’s my Salty Dawg,
He is the man of reason and I the one of the mean season :D. Yes let us hear what has happened. I for one wonder if anyone is out there reading these boards. I do not want war but do demand my national boundries be respected. I will goto war if provoked into it. I will not launch the first arrow but the gods know I will slit the last throat ;) Awaiting your envoys......
Big Doug
To All Nations of Middle Earth,
Now that some light has been shown on this issue of South Gondors sailing mishaps, I have been told that the actions of me looked odd. Now someone as dim as myself would say how the heck could that be. Well it seems that the Evil side went and scanned over all the Free Peoples post on THEIR Yahoo site. My word that truly is evil. So no wonder when I blocked the navies it was seen to be odd. Now I have nothing other then the word of the free that this took place. I must tell you that if the Dark side truly did do this then you people suck! I know some of you on each side and I would hate to think you would behind such things. Is winning wanted so bad that cheating is now an acceptable action. If I am misinformed then I am truly sorry for even suggesting such a thing. If you guys did peek, even just one of you, then I think we should write to Clint and start the game over from scratch. I also think the evils as A TEAM should condem this action and punish the perp by making him pay for one round of play for the entire free team. I have an eight and a half year old son who could teach you scoflaws a thing or two about ethics and Honor. Again I hope I’m wrong and it was just good play not cheating that had you guys counter to perfection every move made by the free against Mordor.
Very Put Off,
A. I.: While I am not in this game I have an opinion on this sort of thing, which happens more often than people may think.
Security is everyone’s business. There can only be a breech of security if if a person is careless and, in effect, blunders around in a fog. It only takes a few seconds to ask yourself “Is this wise? Is this secure?” Plenty of people leave their keys in the car, their windows unlocked, their checkbook laying out. These individuals have to learn things the hard way, some of them two or three times.
This game was designed and intended to be an amoral Real Politik. As in the Real World, espionage is allowed. Part of the genius of the game designers was how closely this game mimics reality, despite being a fantasy simulation.
So, do you also feel it is perfectly okay to look at your opponent’s Scrabble letters when he goes to the restroom? Or at your poker oppenent’s cards in a similar situation? It would seem you might feel it quite alright to break the window of the poor person who left their keys in that car and drive away with it. After all, you couldn’t have stolen the car without them first making that error. I guess they deserve it, even though the law calls it stealing.
Espionage within the game’s mechanics is fine. Exploiting someone’s error archiving game data is unscrupulous and poor sportsmanship/gamesmanship and, I am fairly certain, not something the game designers had in mind as a viable tactic.
Try not to offend,
Reading the past two notes reminds me of the sence in Full Metal Jacket were private Pyle has left his foot locker unlocked. The seargent responds that if it wasn't for assholes like Pyle (leaving his equipment unprotected) there wouldn't be any thieves. Kinda like the Richard Pryor joke about the serial killer, when asked why he killed evryone in the house he states, well....they were home. Clint tells me that it unfolded this way: A dark servant was surfing and stumbled upon the site. Once it was found he imediatly told the Free Peoples and DID NOT review any material. Now what is the concensus here. Is anyone going to help shed some light. Who was the person who found the sight. What is the proof of the fix. Let's get examples and facts from each side. I for one would love to hear this story in all it's versions from begining to sortdid end :)
I have no problem believing what Clint said. The Noldo thought other wise. How about the players get this out and on the table for all of us to review.
Harad, I emailed you directly about the details as I have them.
Ed, your post is why I like to sit with my back to the wall rather than the window. It’s why I don’t buy stuff online and why I don’t give out my Social Security number on demand…people don’t have the scruples I grew up with…espianoge my ass. But whatever man I don’t care what you think.
Darkies, our team took the high road on this. We didn’t bitch to clint when we found out the viewing took place, we informed him it did and that we were satisfied to fight on. After our first turn, some thought that it was worse than we suspected…still, no one cried foul, we will fight on.
Make of this what you will. I’m not here assigning blame or crying about some less than stellar turns. I’m not here trying to cajole the neuts by blaming you all for lack of ethics…no point to it all really,
One turn does not make a game and we will fight on.
Jason the Woodmen
Thanks to everyone who has, or will, comment.
GSI Rule Books are hard to come by these days. But, attnetion is invited to page 17, top paragraph on the right side. Espionage is allowed and unrestricted. Page 61 first paragraph on the right. Subterfuge is allowed.
This game can be played on many levels, not all of them visable to linear thinkers.
On the List, some time ago, there was an article on limited horizonx, constrained games and horizonless games. An example of a constrained game is chess. It has infinite depth but the four corners are well established as are the conventions. It is rook to QB4 check. The rook neither jumps other pieces nor operates off the table. The GSI game designers had ONE rule. That was no player may operate more than one nation during a game. No thirty page House Rules for them. It was Wild West cutthroat chaos. And a great attraction it was to a person like myself who leads an honest, humdrum and, yes, boring life. Now in a fantasy game, where no one actually gets hurt, you can backstab to your heart’s content.
My English friends often bring up the “spirit-of-the-game”. When asked just what that means the responses go like"well, I know it when I see it". Let me suggest that applying an alien ethical system to Middle Earth (especially one difficult to define) is not appropriate.
Besides, it gives me a chance to put that long-ago U.S. Army training to work. Establishing black intelops (aka “Black Antelopes”) and intel systems uses the same principles as what worked among the Montignard tribes in the Central Highlands.
By all means persons should act honorably. Understand if your security is poor you might be victimized. Not evryone is required to think like yourself.
Best to all.
I believe I can shed some light, as I was the “perpetrator” of said offense. I am playing the Doggie Lord in ME76.
Yes, I can completely understand everyone’s concern over this matter.
Had a FP player informed my group that our messages had been wide open, “concern” would likely be the mildest of reactions.
I found the FP Yahoo group while looking for the DS Yahoo group. Is it my fault if a search using keywords of “MEPBM” and “76” brought up their Yahoo group as a result and not only that but the message section was wide open? (The DS Yahoo group as it happened was hidden, and on the UK Yahoo site anyway)
Now, obviously you have only my word that I did not read ANY messages. And you only have my word that I did not reveal this to my teamates until AFTER the problem was corrected.
So what DID I do? I immediately contacted the freeps, BEFORE turn 1 ran btw, and asked them to change the group to private so no one else could find it as I had. (Obviously a deceitful attempt to cover my espionage by appearing concerned, right?)
If I had really wanted to gain advantage in the game through cheating I would never have bloody told them in the first place. In short, I reasoned I could be silent and if someone else had found the group I would just sit back and say “not my problem”, or I could (and did) let the enemy know they were compromised. Yes, I figured people would suspect that I’m a liar and had read their plans, but I thought that not as bad as the possibility that we all pay and play, and then 10 turns down the road find out someone had been reading the freeps messages and cheating the whole time. Not a fun alternative I imagined. Lucklily this all occured prior to turn 1 so the FP could (and did apparently) contact Clint and voice their concerns.
It’s turn 3 now, so I imagine it was decided this was not a disaster of game halting proportions.
Now, if the DS end up winning I suppose every FP player will in the back of their mind always think of this as the game the DS cheated. Wonderful. Well, it seems likely to me that we will win, but not because of knowing any of our enemies moves beforehand, it will be becuase we will simply outplay I predict. 
btw, this is only my 3rd MEPBM game, but from what I’ve heard and seen by playing FP so far the DS don’t need any more of an advantage.
So, I ask you all. What would you have done in my shoes then?
For my part, I know there are always two sides to every story. A few posts up I was responding to Ed Mills’ opinions, not to give judgement on an action that I could not personally verify took place. If everything you say is true, Pox, then I would have done the same thing. Had I come across the unprotected group, I would have informed the moderator right away without browsing.
Scott
Corsairs
Now, obviously you have only my word that I did not read ANY messages. And you only have my word that I did not reveal this to my teamates until AFTER the problem was corrected.
As far as we’re aware this is correct and the players on the DS side did not gain any advantage from awareness of that information.
Something like this comes up from time to time; occasionally players send orders to the ME List for example, or a pdf goes awry but if both sides attempt to not use that information then I usually find things work out okay.
Someone told me how in one game of Diplomacy one players sent out a false set of results claiming he was the GM or where others bribed the GM with a bottle of scotch - I guess that’s Real Politik as well. Certain things, if we find out we’ll ban that player. I won’t list them as the list is way too long but it’s reasonably clear if someone oversteps the boundaries of fair play.
I guess it’s a case of personal morales here, you’ve got the one case where you use anything to win the game (note emphasis on game not real life) and then you got those like the player concerned who attempted to rectify an error on his opponents side.
Thanks
Clint
Doglord, you did right, teammate. Some people seek hard for excuses to cover their lack of success. It is one of many human shortcomings. Yours was an honorable act, well done.
Freeps, no cheating has taken place, nor will any. You WILL be destroyed, by the book.
Big Doug & Scott, like I said, no cheating has occured. If the Gondors are determined to fight you, feel free to join the Dark Side!
Don/LR
Pox’s tale of what happened is pretty much as I understand it and how he related it to us back when it transpired, and my suspicion is that his sense of fair play should be admired. I’m inclined to believe him and would be honored to be on his team sometime. Then again, everything he says might be true and it still doesn’t mean that someone else didn’t discover our blunder and enjoyed a peek about our early plans.
Even if it was totally innocent and no messages were read, it did put us at least at a tiny disadvantage. This messiness (hopefully resolved) with Harad is the clearest example.
In any event, what’s done is done and I for one won’t blame it for whatever happens in the future. You don’t exactly need a crystal ball to have a decent idea of how Turn 1 will go. Skill and luck will decide the fate of Middle Earth in Game 76 just as it does in any other game. I’m just glad the DL clued us in when he did and that we can be fully assured a fair game the rest of the way.
And congrats to the Quiet Avenger and the Long Rider for being first to the character game.
Well Don (LR) I’m not looking for excuses for any shortcomings…as I said earlier that wasn’t my stance in this at all. I’m glad you all think you will win it…by the book…lol…the black book maybe?
Anyway, to the Doglord, I told you privately more than once that I hoped this wouldn’t become an issue and I stand by that. I just want to play the game and I said before that I did believe you did the right thing (sorry Ed, I still think inside my box) and I was grateful to you for pointing it out to me as early as you did.
I’m content to drop this whole issue and just play the game…sorry if anyone of the Darkies took exception to this…it wasn’t my intent certainly. I’m just wanting to play on and see how it goes…
Killjoy you said QA and LR first in the character game…is that a reference to the QA smashing himself on the walls? And the LR getting ole Din O blocked?
It was probably a bad role for Din O, but you never know, I played the Cloud Lord before and missed w/ 100+ ranked agents on a 30 point com leading an army in the plains w/o a backup or guard…it happens…I’m glad it happened here but just making the point…
have fun guys, I don’t post to this much but I will when needed…here’s to a fun game and free people win…
Jason M. Roberts
Woodmen gm 76
A bit angry Easterlings Ruler is asking for the reason for both FP and DS picking my popcenters for battlefield???
There is a lot of room elsewhere; I do not hope any of you issue a capture order as I will act according to that.
Due to a computer crash (motherboard is dead) and therefore the controller for my raid 0 array is gone meaning I have lost all mails from both sides so I can’t make any contact at present, and there is still some way before I up running again so please take this in to account. I only have one mail account operating at present and that is
Brian (at) ruc.dk just remember to replace the (at) with @ then it works
Brian Easterlings
Well that explains that! I thought we didn’t even have him as a player :eek: