With the DS presently winning 83% of GB games in this format I had a look at both sets of duos and would like to suggest the following. I’d like feedback before implementing any changes though.
Have you found a disproportionate # of drops/eliminations amongst the usual FP suspects in this scenario? Is it Nation Pairing tweaking you need or a boost, ala 1650 Rhuduar, to someone instead…?
WW FP instead of DS, Rhun eliminated and Khand DS. Really draws definitive lines across the map.
I agree with others about puting the CL with the FK. It makes the game to much hell on the Gondors and to much of the game hangs on the Gondor/Mordor stand off. In 1650 NG and SG have enough troops and PC’s to help balance this out but I don’t see that in 2950. My suggestion is move the CL to another player give the FK someone that can support him with armies like the Dark Lts or Blind Sorc. Give the CL to maybe even the Dragon Lord, I know that gives the CL double recon but it puts him thinking about else where on the map. Dragon Lord dose after all have to hold off a lot of FP’s in Mirkwood/West, with the White Wizy now Good the game seems VERY east vs west with this set up. That might help.
Consider simply removing Nalagurth from the Witch King artifact inventory and making a one or two starting dark agent artifacts “lost”. That would slow down the dark agent hordes, but not completely handicap the Darks.
My concern with Khand as Dark with the Corsairs is that it makes the darks into an economic powerhouse, which doesn’t seem to be a problem. 8)
This increases pressure on Mordor but will lead to large battles in the East.
Or even Rhun / Khand Free, Corsairs / Dunland dark (fortify dunland capital).
This would net a few invasions of Mordor from the East, I suspect, yet would trigger some ugly battles in the northwest and around the gap of Rohan.
I’ve only played one game of 2950 gunboat (Dragon Lord) and it was a crazy game; the play by the Free in that game seemed sub-par to me, rather than anything clever that I did to hang on.
Players have complained bitterly about double scout with the Cl so I’m just going to stay away from that combo. Note in the 12v12 game the KE and Cor are regularly DS so although it improves their economy it doesn’t do so overtly.
How about the above? Gives the Dragon a back-up and economic support (as does some economy from the Cor for WK). Takes some of the pressure away from the Gondors (note NG has the Dunlending to help with agents).
The problem with the WW/Cl combo is that you’re basically saying that you’ve got an enormous Character nation which includes the two most popular nations in one duo so most players will want to play it. A second problem is that the WW will quickly die against determined opposition so leaving the CL on its own.
Keeping them totally apart seems the way forward (hence no RE as DS as that’s just a slug match in the East). As players generally claim to like 2950 due to the character and economic/nation build up I’d like to support that as best I can. Having a nation that is left out to dry seems to be a whole lot of no-fun.
With the example you gave below I see the Dragon Lord dying a lot so similarly you’ll end up with a less strategic and fun game as well as the Dog Lord has no back-up to give and no quick solution to providing one either.
I think that if you want to balance the FP, while reducing the potency of the DS, I think you need to think more geographically. To strengthen the FP, I’d suggest using a set such as:
Woodman / Sinda
Northmen / Dwarves
Rangers / Rohan
Noldo / Silvan
North Gondor / Dunlendings
South Gondor / White Wizard
The Woodmen / Sinda can provide character and direct military support, but may still struggle economically. The Northmen / Dwarves are a strong combo (except lacking agent support). The Rangers can easily reinforce the gap, especially with the WW / Duns being FP, as well as financially float Rohan. Noldo could be paired with anyone but the WW / NG I’d say, but the Silvan is economically weaker than most of the FP - but I could go for a NG/Noldo, but then SO much is riding on the success of that player. I like the Dun agent support for North Gondor, especially when the Duns don’t have to strictly go military ASAP to beat the WW. South Gondor / WW would be very popular, I suspect.
I’d take the RhunE out (such a weak 2950 DS), and Khand / Corsairs as DS.
For the DS, I’d suggest:
Witch King / Khand Easterlings
Dragon Lord / Blind Sorceror
Dog Lord / Cloud Lord
Fire King / Long Rider
Dark Lts / Corsairs
Ice King / Quiet Avenger
Economically, the Khand can easily support the WK, especially with only the NM in the Rhun Sea. Geographically spread all over the map, that player will need to figure out how they want to focus their efforts. The BS I’ve always thought is a natural pairing for the Dragon Lord, can help protect the back-up, and economically can help him survive as well. I like the Dog Lord / CL combo, since the Dog Lord has a much more important role with a unified gap of Rohan. This will take some agent pressure off the Gondors as well. The FK / LR is questionable - they were my leftovers honestly. The Corsairs are easily overrun by a committed South Gondor (which really hurts NG), but giving them some character support would go a long way to improving its chances. Also, the poor starting economy of the DkLts can be bolstered as well. You could trade the IK and DkLts above, and still get good parings that would be less powerful (double scout for DkLts vs the IK). I’d prefer the double scout be IK than LR though, since the IK doesn’t start with the agent artifacts … 8)
Note with my pairings I also looked at potential Curse capabaility for the FPs so that it allowed the FPs to produce 2 or 3 duos that are capable of doing that and removed the 13/15 combo to reduce the DS’s capabilitiy (as well as the WW going FP helps a lot).
True about the Curse capability of the Free - they have a hard time mounting a Curse squad as it is - 4/9, 5/24 and 3/10? are possible under your choices.
With my choices above, I see 5/10 and 7/24 as obvious choices for Curses. I’m not sure I follow the 13/15 argument - there hasn’t been a Dog Lord / BS duo proposed/implemented. I see the Dragon Lord / BS the only obvious choice to make a Curse squad - all the other pairings are more limited (I can’t see a DogL / CL curse company, but you never know with GB …)
1/9 Woodman / Sinda
2/8 Northmen / Dwarves
3/4 Rohan / Rangers
5/10 Silvan / Noldo
6/23 North Gondor / Dunlendings
7/24 South Gondor / White Wizard
DS:
11/25 Witch King / Khand Easterlings
12/15 Dragon Lord / Blind Sorceror
13/14 Dog Lord / Cloud Lord
16/17 Ice King / Quiet Avenger
18/19 Fire King / Long Rider
20/21 Dark Lts / Corsairs
Rhun Easterlings degraded. This set-up creates a more defined north/south boundary that helps “frontline” FP better protect the other character Nations.
I would prefer to use the WW as FP, as this would make the position much more enjoyable (and less suicidal), and it would allows the Duns to focus on their agent ability more (thus helping the FP out where they hurt the most).
The DS are significantly weakened in this pattern imo, but not unviable.
With the Duns as FP, I think a WK/WW pair would be the first pair dead in every 2950 game. The Dragon Lord or Woodmen still might be the first nation to die.
:bash:
Remember that the WK capital is down south so it’s safe since it requires a coordinated FP effort to take down Minas Morgul early. Angrenost is a fortress and hard to take. Gundabad is a pain to get to. Gram needs coordination to take. Remember, the key to Gunboat is that numerous nations that are used to working together can’t, so a WK/WW combo can last. Given Saruman’s emmy level and that the WK starts with Pectoral, laying pop centers is not that hard. The financial constraints are tough but not impossible. As always, it depends on the player.
And if I had this combo I know what I would concentrate on first.
Okay here’s the two I like. I think mine is the best for the following reason (but happy to be shown the error of my ways). (Note I think Mark’s is good and I’m not having a go at him, I strongly appreciate the feedback as it made me re-evaluate my thoughts.
Mark’s proposal
i) 1/9 means no curse option - (not enough Mages)
ii) 7/24 ditto
iii) DS are even stronger than before so penalising the FPs. (Eg 12/15 makes for strong curse capability).
As I see the problem being that FP are presently being crushed by the DS I want to improve the FP.
Clint’s solution:
i) Riders/Noldo, Silvan/WW, Dunadan/Sindar give options of 3 Sick duos strengthening the FP vs the Agent superiority of the DS. WW in particular is weak on back-up Mage support so Silvan help there, without being over-powered I feel.
ii) DragonLd is probably the most fragile - so them having an option on a back-up from the Khand (that can also protect their b/up) means that they are more stabile. (WW and Dragon regularly die in GB games). I agree the WK/Khand is fine.
Mark Farrior FP:
1/9 Woodman / Sinda
2/8 Northmen / Dwarves
3/4 Rohan / Rangers
5/10 Silvan / Noldo
6/23 North Gondor / Dunlendings
7/24 South Gondor / White Wizard
DS:
11/25 Witch King / Khand
12/15 Dragon Lord / Blind Sorceror
13/14 Dog Lord / Cloud Lord
16/17 Ice King / Quiet Avenger
18/19 Fire King / Long Rider
20/21 Dark Lts / Corsairs
Further thoughts welcome though. I’m sure we can improve on this. Once we can come to a decent enough conclusion I can start trying the get the 2950 GB game up and running and test it out (there’s 9 signed up at present).
I’m mainly trying to play Devil’s advocate and provide something to add to the discussion. I think curses are difficult to achieve/maintain in a GB game, so I’m not sure that there should be as much weight as other factors. Mages tend to be busier-than-usual doing other things too in GB. Another thought is the one that Ben brought up - fighting all over the land is more fun, but leads to more early causalties. Unfortunately in GB, that tends to lead to drops of generally whole Nations - the leftover of a pairing.
If you wanted to try another set with more emphasis on survival of the fittest, you could have the WW and KhandE be DS, and the Corsairs and Duns be FP (as Ben suggested). I originally though that the Duns could be DS, but the loss of another double scout to the DS is just too much. We could keep many of the pairings you have, but in losing the WW, I think the FP go back down to 2 curse nations - so I’d suggest 5/10 instead of 3/10 (unless somehow 5/21 could have curses … ).
).