Note I’ve removed the bulk turn up front option, it was clear to me that with a bit of feedback that it wasn’t workable. Check the first two bits for what I’m proposing at present.
Clint
no 3-nation teams is a huge improvement. thank you.
No one has mentioned this, so let me propose it:
The Pool-of-Players should be the first choice for pickup of dropped nations, not the 2nd choice (currently written that existing players are first choice).
Rationale:
a. if a nation duo is dropped, it’s best to keep that nation duo intact, rather than conceivably splitting it up to 2 other singleton nations (or one singleton nation existing player and one nation for playerpool player). i.e. it’s more fair to the other side since changes in nation-mix is a BIG CHANGE in GB and the way things are currently done, the team getting the change learns about it with at least one turn advance notice to the other team.
b. if the nation or nation duo being dropped go to someone in the player pool, they should get access to prior turns in the game for the nation or nation duo. This preserves knowledge in one “bucket” and doesn’t give advantage to one side over the other. If the nation or nation duo goes to someone already in the game, they should not get prior turns as that gives significant extra knowledge to them in addition to the knowledge they already have regarding game-state.
2 Rules you should add + one Rule wording change you should make:
- Player pool pickups get prior turnresults for nation(s) picked up. Existing players get only the last turnsheet run for a nation picked up.
- All players on both sides are notified of changes in nation pairings BEFORE any turns are run with new nation pairings. Note that if a nation-pair dropped and was picked up by a player pool, there would be no notification since nation pairings didn’t change.
- (Reword of existing vote rule): No more often than once per five turns (ie turns 1-5, 6-10, 11-15 etc), a player may request that their team vote to concede. Each nation on the team gets one vote. If 2/3 or more of the nations on the team vote to concede, the game ends. Dead nations automatically count as a vote to concede. Votes are confidential (including which player requested the vote) and are solicited by ME Games. A “no-response” is considered to be a vote to continue play. The other team is not informed the vote is taking place unless the vote is successful, at which point all players are notified, the final turn is run, and the game ends.
thanks,
Dave
Dave - Ideally we’ll keep the 2 nations intact but that’s not always possible.
Pick-ups - There’s 2 scenarios here:
i) where a player drops two nations and so both become available - ideally we get a new player in then. Ie player pool first.
ii) a player drops after one of his nation has been removed. I’m for an existing player in the game - that way both sides keep to 2 nations per player, rather than 1 side with 2 nations per player, and the other side with some with 2 and some with 1 nation each (ie clearly at a disadvantage after already being at a disadvantage of losing a nation). Ie players within the game first. (As there’s no 3 nations allowed that will have a major impact on the game anyway I feel and the major factor in this upgraded GB format - with the other aspects important additions as well).
Old turns would then be available for that nation in all cases.
Due to administration we’ll inform players when we’re able to - ie we update the combos as Rob gets the chance. It’s not ideal I know but timing to keep turnaround going is difficult enough in that situation. First we need to know a player has dropped - this can take days, secondly we need to contact players and get them up for it - that can also take days (or longer if we use the contact players first and give them a nation, then players second with a list of what is available so that they can pick so that we can keep the nations separate that generally seem to cause unhappiness amongst players - ie double scout with agent nations). Then contacing players within the game is an extra hurdle, adds (IMO) not a lot and hence disrupts things more than it gains.
I like the vote. “Dead nations automatically count as a vote to concede.” This is new isn’t it? What’s the feedback on this from players - I’ve not considered its impact enough to have an opnion yet.
Thoughts welcome please.
Clint
Clint, thank you for the clarifications.
I like and agree that a dropped duo goes to Player Pool first.
I prefer that even a dropped singleton goes to the player pool first, but can live with it going to an existing player if the existing player only gets the last turnsheet. It is unfair for an existing player to get all the prior turns. this gives them 3 nations’ worth of information (despite the fact that they lost one of their nations) and information is golden in GB.
On the vote thing, I think we need to make the change. It is a change. It covers a loophole in the prior vote rule that causes games to trundle on after they should be over methinks…
Dave
Clint
Thanks. That clarifies things a good bit. The up-front payments clashes with my religious principles as a devout miser but would be useful if it stopped avoidable drops disrupting gamers. Only real concern is if a game folded immediately after one of the pay cycles. Might there be a danger that if a player was doing badly or fearing his team was doing badly he might be more inclined drop then rather than pay another cycle and risk losing half of it. Not saying there’s a solution to this but just something that occurred to me.
Steve
Okay, let’s try this again - I’m dropping the Bulk buy as an option… 
I don’t think it’s workable. check the top 2 bits of this for what I’m proposing. I’ll add some clarification from Dave’s post - but what do people think about the update to votes? (I think Dave is correct that dead nations vote against continuing but then I’d say all nations have a vote - so there’s upto 12 votes on a side).
Clint (GM)
vote: Yes, my proposal is that all nations vote on a side if a vote is called for by a team member.
dead nation == vote to concede
no-reply == vote to continue
all other nations get one vote per nation (concede or continue)
2/3 required to quit (i.e. 8 nations must say concede).
Dave
Clint,
I’m with Dave on the voting rules. Will these new rules affect the next GB
game?
Guy
Yes - when I feel you guys have given all your feedback I’ll re-write the rules for the new GB and show you to get the feedback there.
Clint
I agree with Dave’s proposal on votes to end a game.
Tim
I like these changes - I agree with Dave that the “re-pairing” of Nations greatly mutates the game, changing the dynamics immediately.
FYI, I would gladly use a “bulk pre-pay” method if I could get a significant discount and then apply it across all my games.
I think the surcharge of $5 per game is appropriate, especially if it allows ME to keep 3-Nation sets out.
Yes, Nation DUO drops should go intact to the player pool first, then split among the team if no one is available. However, I think that single “leftover” Nations should go to people within the game that are singletons - yes, it may shore up their position, but usually they are targets anyway if solo.
I think you are making the Pool of Players free-turn thing too complicated. Just say that if you pick up a duo, you get a total of four free turns (2 per Nation), and if you pick up a single Nation, you get two free turns. Or whatever combo would work for you - just make it a fixed number instead a priority situation where you have to keep track of it.
I propose to remove the every-five-turn diplos as well. I’d enjoy the Gunboat game better without them.
I propose an automatic “do we continue” Turn 11, 16, 21, etc. vote, with dead nations being “concede” votes. No reply in an active Nation would give a “continue on” vote. It eliminates any chance for a bug hunt (no one can have more than 2 Nations), and might actually end a game, instead of always redistributing the nations into different combos. 2/3 concede (8 Nations) to end a game sounds reasonable.
Mark Farrior
Cool - I think we’re pretty much in agreement - I’ll wait a bit longer and get something out for the w/end with the full rules in one document just to check.
Free turns - Mark you could be right.
As for bulk buy yes I think that those who could afford it would do so, but effectively that would reduce our income for no real benefit for the game.
Clint
Okay here’s the final rules. Thoughts welcome. (Note so far two players for the Pool idea - I’ll see how that works).
Rules for current game updated 26/10/06
Gunboat 1650 game: Nations available for reference for players
FP: 1/4 Woodmen/Arthedain, 2/8 Northmen/Dwarves, 3/7 Eothraim/South Gondor,
5/9 Cardolan/Sindar, 6/23 North Gondor/Dunlendings, 10/22 Noldo/Harad
DS: 11/20 Witch King/Dark Lieutenants, 12/21 Dragon Lord/Corsairs, 13/15 Dog Lord/Blind Sorcerer, 14/24 (Also CL town @3428 goes to village, CL town @3629 goes to MT) Cloud Lord/Rhudaur, 16/19 Ice King/Long Rider, 17/18 Quiet Avenger/Fire King
Fortifications on 1910/4217, Corsair & Rhudaur DS, Harad and Dunlendings FP (no Easterlings) Relations changed as appropriate (please check)
Players in the game (in alphabetical order):
N/a at present
Player pool:
Colin Forbes (26/10/06), Bernie Gaider (26/10/06),
New rules and changes to be aware of (26/10/06)
Finances: i) Set-up fee: $5 per duo which will be used entirely for the Player Pool. See below for how those funds would be distributed in the form of free turns (subsidised by us).
ii) Set-up costs: Set-up cost costs the usual grudge game set-up (due to the additional database work) plus the $5 as in i) above.
iii) Discount: Reduction in turnfees is 5% if a player is running two nations on turns 6/11/16/21 etc they get a free turn on that turn to reflect this. This should reduce the costs of games by around 5% for most players (25 p discount per turn or around 42c per turn for North American players).
Nations: Two nations per “team” maximum (3 nations no longer allowed). This duo can be split as normal between two players but they count as one player for purposes of number of nations per “team” allowed. Ie you and an ally can play together in a GB game if you want to playing one nation each and constitute a team.
Drop outs: One nation players are eligible to pick up a dropped nation, then we’ll look outside the game for others preferably from the Pool of players. If they’re signed up for this Pool they’ll get the bonus money as described in 4) below. (If not then they don’t get the additional bonus).
Duos dropped: We’ll look to get a new player to pick up both nations from outside the game in preference to splitting the nation. All old turns will be available.
Single nation dropped: We’ll look within the game for players presently running one nation. Only the last turn will be made available in this situation.
We will attempt to keep strong combinations of players apart. If a nation (or nations) become available we will contact the team offering the fact that there are nations available but not describing them (ie which nations they are). This includes double scout nations with big agent nations.
A player will be able request an additional nation and after a couple of days (to allow all interested parties to get in touch) that nation will be allocated to that player. At this point you won’t be able to request a nation in particular. If there are still nations available after this point we will contact you again with the Nation Ids so that you can then request particular nation (or as per usual if you send a list that will be a big help). As usual we will try to get other players in first but it’s difficult to do this.
Pool of players
What we’d like: A pool of players come forwards that offer to pick up a nation should we not be able to find players outside the game for GB drops. They would get the following offer for a pick up:
1st pick up - 1 or 2 nations gets 4 free turns for each nation.
2nd & 3rd pick up - 1 or 2 nations gets 3 free turns for each nation.
Further picks up get 2 free turns per nation.
Note: i) Picking up player must pay for their first two turns (ie we’ll remove the funds from their account and add 2 free turns so they’ll have a total of at least 4 turns paid for.)
Standard rules
Doubling: Doubling is allowed on any characters.
Combos and Dead Nations: Every 3 turns (or when we get the chance to update it) we’ll update the nation combos, Dead nations as well. Inactive nations will, by default, be revealed but not specifically mentioned.
End game: No more often than once per five turns (ie turns 1-5, 6-10, 11-15 etc), a player may request that their team vote to concede. Each surviving nation on the team gets one vote. If 2/3 or more of the surviving nations on the team vote to concede, the game ends. Dead nations count as a vote to end the game. Votes are confidential (including which player requested the vote) and are solicited by ME Games. A “no-response” is considered to be a vote to continue play. The other team is not informed the vote is taking place unless the vote is successful, at which point all players are notified, the final turn is run, and the game ends.
Additional rules: If there is at any time there is a greater than 3:1 advantage of surviving nations allegiance vs. allegiance, the game ends automatically.
Offensive actions: Players are allowed to take offensive actions against unknown characters upon their OWN population centres. In other words, if Elrond, Erestor and John Smith appear on the Cloud Lord capital John Smith is now a legitimate target for challenge, curse etc by the Cloud Lord even though the nation of the character is unknown. As per usual if you think that there are situations where you might need clarification on a rule do get in touch. 9/10 times it’s fine.
Other rules: List of players who are playing but not nations nor side. Note Game ENDS (then and only then are the players names revealed) after 50 turns - highest total team victory points wins (unless within 10% of each other on Victory points - then draw declared) - Or one side has a greater than 3 to 1 player advantage.
Individual victory points at end of game = average of your two nations (dead nations = 400) Nations that count are your starting nations if you pick up nations in the game.
Trust the players not to try and find out who their team mates/opposition are - and not to diplome even if they come by such knowledge. You are not allowed to use camp or character names to exchange information or any other means.
No influencing, stealing, sabotaging, cursing etc on or from or to your team (or unknown characters not at your own PCs). No challenging, assassination or kidnapping (or any similar means) if you do not know the nation of the character if you are not at your own PC. If you think it is forbidden by the rules it probably is so don’t do it (ask us for clarification BEFORE the event and we can then inform you if it is or not).
You are able to transfer produce/gold from your nation to others in the game, and use information from 925’s, Lore spells etc for your other nation. Stealing or any orders on your second nation from your first nation (or vice-versa) is perfectly within the rules. On allies or anyone else you are strictly limited as above.
No information transfer is allowed or allowed to be attempted in Gunboat. So transferring 23 gold (attack 23) or say 3221 gold and say 6 gold (indicating attack 3221 on turn 6) is not allowed. The ATTEMPT is what is against the spirit and rules of the Gunboat game - successful or not.
Hence the rule about naming characters, or arranging your armies into a number 1 on the hexes for attack player 1 - although a facetious situation it’s something I’ve been asked - is not allowed.
FAQ: Question: I know that we aren’t allowed to assassinate, influence or anything against your own team. However in one of the games I am in one of our Nations has died and they have some very powerful artifacts in their possession. In this instance are we allowed to Personal Challenge or Assassinate their characters to get the Artifacts or do we have to Recruit them through the Bribe/Recruit character order?
Answer: this is fine to do if you KNOW that the nation is dead. Get in touch if there’s any doubt.
Thanks Clint
Old Gunboat 1650 game combos: Nations available for reference for players
4+22 Arthedain +Harad, 6+23 N Gondor +Duns, 7+1 S Gondor +Wood, 8+2 Dwarves+North, 9+5 Sinda+Cardolan, 10+3 Noldo+Eothraim.
18+14 Fire King+Cloud Lord, 20+24 D.Lieut+Rhudaur, 16+19 Ice King+ L.Rider, 11+15 Blind + Witch K, 17+13 QA+Dog Lord, 12+21 DragonL +Corsair
Not presently on offer: (improved RH/WK): DS: WK/ DkL (1804 city), Rhu/LR (1910 city/castle; 1908 fort; 2208 MT/fort), FK/CL, Cor/DrgL, IK/QA, DogL/BS
FP: NG/Duns, Arth/Wood, Noldo/Harad, Sinda/Card, SG/EO, Northmen (4217 fort) / Dw
Works for me and good work Clint. Please enter me into the Player Pickup
Pool…
Guy
Added Guy, got 4 now.
Clint
I still think you should run some no drop gunboat games as well. That way players that have built good nations can at least feel that their allies won’t drop on them.
As for the no diplo I actually would prefer a diplo. One suggestion might be you are allowed two diplos total per game. I think the two diplos would be beneficial in a no drop game.
tim
Tim,
Drops still happen in no drop games, there’s been a few drops in a current
no drop GB.
Guy
beautiful job Clint.
Please add me to the player pool.
Tim, diplos are good for DS, not so good for the FP. I don’t see any reason to have diplos.
Dave
Just a small note here that the above may be a bit confusing. If I understand correctly, it’s 2/3 of all the nations voting to concede with dead nations automatically counting as a yes vote.
Bernout
Bernout - yes that’s correct. Dead nations vote to end, and therefore count towards vote to end the game and if 2/3rds of the nations vote to end that side concedes.
Tim - no drop games; I’m hoping this might do just as well and deal with some of the issues I potentially see in no drop games. Ie it will be a competitive and fun game for all I’m hoping.
Dave - added to player pool as requested.
Clint