No drop GB games are quite a disappointment given the number of drops. Amazing how many drops there have been frankly.
Clint,
I have concerns regarding “dead nations count as a vote to concede.”
If true, then every game will end when four nations are left on one side the instant one person votes to concede… even if the side triggering the vote is winning and outnumbers its opponents.
For example:
12 darks originally, ten are dead, two survive.
12 free originally, 8 are dead, four survive.
Person on the free votes to concede with one nation.
Free votes to concede: 3 “no” (surviving nations) versus 1 “yes” (surviving nation) + 8 “yes” (due to being eliminated) = free quit and concede the game… even though they outnumber their opponents 2 to 1.
It’s worse if that one person controls two nations. For example, what if five free survive and only two darks, but the person voting to concede controls two free nations? Then it becomes:
Free votes to concede: 3 “no” (surviving nations) versus 2 “yes” (surviving nations) + 7 “yes” (due to being eliminated) = free quit and concede the game… and in this case they outnumber their opponents 5:2.
This is crazy, it allows one person to throw the game when their own side is winning. There also need to be no votes prior to turn ten.
Bradford
See, this is why I like ME Games (and Harlequin) – they are prepared to work with their players to make games better. Other companies I have played with could learn a lot from this sort of thing 
I’m wondering though if this particular one hasn’t gone as far as it can, without falling into the trap of trying to make everyone happy (which is of course, impossible).
Will be fascinated to see how the game works 
Colin
Well Brad, your example just is unrealistic for GB. Also, in your example, the DS have already got 10 dead nations or “votes to concede”. Maybe we need to add that 8 dead nations == a loss for that side?
GB games don’t have 2 vs. 4. GB games end at turn 50 worse case. in the GB games I’ve seen, there has never been even 2/3 of a side dead. Here are some current stats:
GB 94: turn 33, 1 FP nation dead, 2 DS nations dead
GB 96: turn 32, 3 DS nations dead
To take out such a significant % of the nations on the other side in 1650 requires concerted effort by a lot of nations all at once, and that’s just not likely in GB. I am not worried about your scenario and consider it quite unlikely to ever occur. On the contrary, the situation we’re trying to deal with using this rule occurs in every game. the game becomes lopsided, but dead nations don’t count as votes to quit, so some bug-hunt loving player keeps the game going much longer than it has a right to.
Dave
For example:
12 darks originally, ten are dead, two survive.
12 free originally, 8 are dead, four survive.
That scenario is very, very unlikely (ie it’s never happened nor got anywhere near close to happening) so I’m not worried about it occuring - if it did then we can look at the voting structure again. The teams would have to call for a vote as well for this to occur and they would see that it’s 4:2 and would probably be able to judge the game on its merits then (eg Fps down to 1 character each would be quite different from FPs taking the last PC in Mordor, a few curse squads, enemy agents doubled galore etc). Most GB games see a lot less death than that until nearer the end game and then clearly in advantage of one team I’ve found.
As to us listening to players - we try to. I’ll stick to my guns where I’ve not been convinced that I’m in the wrong and feel strongly that something is beneficial for the game but I hope that most of you find me approachable. If not - WHY NOT… :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: (joking)
Clint (GM)
Clint, looks good! Please add me to the pool though it is unlikely I would be able to take up much, I’m on my 2 game limit already as it is but I can still dream. I think GB is a really interesting format, reminds me of the old days when you distrusted your allies as much as the enemy
I like the idea of no drop games as well, I have never understood drops to start with so anything prohibiting them is great. I still worry about those bastards who give up and intentionally damage their nations (I didn’t drop, I bankrupted!) but maybe this isn’t a problem anymore (let’s hope so) as we seem to have a lot of dedicated players these days (and too many on the other side, bloody games are becoming quite challenging these days!).
keep up the good work, you are doing great in my book (even if we aussies sometimes think we get the raw end of the deal on occasion with some of the GM rulings… but they are very rare (Gm rulings, raw deals are even rarer).
cheers,
John Stagoll
Dave,
The darks in my example don’t have “votes to concede” because they didn’t call for the vote. So the example stands. I do not know whether this is likely to occur or not; I’ve not played in enough gunboats yet to say one way or another. But I would be mighty irritated if the example that I gave occurred on my team.
Bradford
Clint,
Can there be a rule that if a dropped nation is given to another nation that before the next turn is ran it is anounced to everyone. It is very critical for all side to know the pairs before any turn is submitted.
Thanks and sorry if you already covered this.
John
I’ve covered below why that’s difficult but here it is again to be thorough - the timing of it can be awful so we rather not.
Due to administration we’ll inform players when we’re able to - ie we update the combos as Rob gets the chance. It’s not ideal I know but timing to keep turnaround going is difficult enough in that situation. First we need to know a player has dropped - this can take days, secondly we need to contact players and get them up for it - that can also take days (or longer if we use the contact players first and give them a nation, then players second with a list of what is available so that they can pick so that we can keep the nations separate that generally seem to cause unhappiness amongst players - ie double scout with agent nations). Then contacing players within the game is an extra hurdle, adds (IMO) not a lot and hence disrupts things more than it gains.
Clint (GM)
As Tim I still think we should advertise some GB games as no-drop, even if nations are picked up after dropping, a player who just gives it a try can ruin the game before he drops.
People who play in no-drop games and drop are not allowed back to a no-drop game, unless it was due to unsual circumstances (let’s say some has to go on an overseas posting just to give an example) and then it is up do Clint and team to decide if they let that player back in.
This way you at least know you start a game with committed players.
As for diplo’s I think you should leave the option open, if you have several players requesting for a game with diplo’s then you advertise it.
For the rest I like the rule changes a posted by Clint with one exception:
"Combos and Dead Nations: Every 3 turns (or when we get the chance to update it) we’ll update the nation combos, Dead nations as well. Inactive nations will, by default, be revealed but not specifically mentioned. "
I think ME games has to update every turn, that should not be so hard to do.
Clint, based on a earlier thread I have just picked up a dropped combo in a gunboat game (without any special bonusses as above :-)) three or four weeks ago. Whenever I have finished that game you can put me back in the pool. Just wanted you and the others to know that I too support the idea of the player pool.
Cheers,
Alain
I agree with Alain about the dead nations. Combos, while relevant, aren’t as irritating as knowing that you’ve just spent time/resources attacking a dead nation. How long it had been dead is unknown. Could have been the turn immediately following the last update.
That is a real tooth-grinder for me. Is there a way that we can fast-track this?
Wade
I think ME games has to update every turn, that should not be so hard to do.
Unfortunately it is hard to do. Anything that isn’t automated takes a lot of extra man-power to keep an eye on and we’ve got a lot of that for every game. If it was simple I’d have offered it a long time ago. 
Diplo and no-drop games - fine to do as a variant - but I’d like to keep them as variants to the normal game (even if they become more prevalent).
Clint (GM)
I hope you dont do this for 2950 GB if the losing 2 turns of 5 if it is still in.
I gave this a lot of thought recently. In normal games you don’t know if a player is in or not, and there are game mechanisms that allow you to find out if a player is in the game or not.
Note we mostly do update the details each turn but not always.
The rules are the same for all 3 scenarios concerning updates for dead nations. Note in the 1000 GB game I’m in there are no updates - the players find out the normal way.
Clint
Clint, I’m ok with it being up to 3 turns to learn a nation is dead. As you say, there are game mechanics to deal with this.
HOWEVER, it is critically important that ME Games notify BOTH sides prior to any turns running if there is a change in pairings as this can give advantage to the side that knows about it if the other side doesn’t. i.e. it’s a fairness issue. And, there is no game mechanic to find out that there are different pairings…
Dave
Clint,
Add me to the player pool, please.
Wade
Hya guys - can you get in touch off list if you want to be added to the list. (It helps us a lot as sometimes a comment here is somewhat different to a comment direct to us). Wade there’s about 4 Wades so I don’t know who you are for definite.
Clint
Only 4??? You’re lucky I’m not a John, then, aren’t you…grin
Wade
I agree with Dave on updating the player pairings immediately. I have said this from the beginning that you should be done. You start the game knowing who is paired in each nation. You should be notified if the pairing have changed.
Sorry Clint, I think this should be mandatory. I have no problem if you ever update the dead nations. I personally think they should not be updated but that is my two cents.
tim
I agree with this too, the every turn reporting I asked for above was mostly with the objective of knowing any change in the pairings in mind.
Alain