If the inexperienced player is willing to listen and learn, that’s not a problem. When the inexperienced player insists on doing things like attempt to threaten 2924 with a 30 commander, or blow up bridges with 30 agents and won’t listen to “reason”, well, we have a problem. When the inexperienced player sends 4 30 emissaries out to steal towns from the enemy, we have a problem. And here’s the thing: reading the rules would make any literate person say “Based on this, I haven’t a hope to get the 525 order off with these guys. But over here, it tells me how to get these guys up in skill such that I’ll be able to do that order later.”
But who reads the annoying “fine print” in the rules anyway?
If a player is that stupid then you are unlikely to change their mind no matter how much they have played. However might be a better chance if the rules were clearer. [Although that is more an argument for exposing the game mechanics than clarifying the rules perhaps?]
However that is beside the point. The argument was about why having the rules vague and inaccurate is unjust to the new player who wishes to put in the effort. Having experienced players on a team may help but doesn’t mean they will. In my 1st game, despite frequent attempts I was unable to get answers to a number of questions. On this forum I have seen a number of players say they would not give new players information they had picked up over the years, even in some cases when they were team-mates. If experienced players feel they need that much assistance against newcomers that doesn’t say much about their confidence does it?
Try 2950 then. I have never played in a 2950/FA where new players we shunned. In my very limited experience in 1650 there are a lot more anti-social players in my view. Fell free to substitute a-hole for anti-social if you like
My personal opinion is that many of the “old guard” of players likes to think of themselves as an elitist group. Probably due to low self-esteem problems in general.
Feel free to PM me about any rule or nuance questions that any of the newer players may have. I will be happy to answer or tell you I don’t know as the case may be
So, there’s a response that will actually give you the opportunity to recruit a dragon?! Wow! What if you’re a Dwarf? Historical enmity between the Children of Aule and Dragons not withstanding, the ‘rules’ will actually let that occur? What’s the die-roll parameters governing that? Will one of my teammates (probably vastly more experienced in the game than I) give me that information if I ask? Or shun me because it’s secret and priviledged info that I haven’t ‘paid’ for in games-played? Or because me knowing that ploy might be something I can turn against them in a future game where we are opponents rather than teammates. Or should that knowledge, along with the fact that there is a finite limit to pop centers, kidnaps, challenges, artifacts held, skill rank thresholds for successful accomplishment of any task and, a laundry list of things a novice should never, never, under any circumstances attempt because it might disrupt your gaming knowledge especially if, horror of horrors, that action might actually result in the program generating the precise random number that makes it successful be known, quantified and precisely calcuatable?
I’m thouroughly confused. And I think I’ve lost the essence of the original premise that started this thread. As we gain more and more experience as a community of gamers are we then left with only playing with beginners as the only way to protect our investment in the knowldege of the game mechanics?
Wait! Stop the presses! I’ve got it! IT’S A GAME! If you need to take it this seriously then you need to let go of the mouse and step away from the keyboard 'cause it’s stopped being entertainment and become life!
It’s a game, but it’s a dynamic social environment within a “team”. People have opinions and one of the worst things that can happen to people from Grade 1 is looking bad or stupid. Nobody wants to be proven wrong, humility is a very rare quality in people anywhere, not just here. Game or no game, it’s not a first person shooter with me against a mystery opponent, be it the computer in front of me or an anonymous enemy over the internet.
It was along those lines of thinking that I first created the attached document a couple (or more) years ago that attempts to help clarify many of the mechanic and “nuance” issues in the game. The current document is dated December 22, 2004, I have no idea if my battery-free laptop has a more recent version. The acknowledgements are likely missing some key players. And the Kidnap thing is NOT in there, not because I’m secretive, but because it’s dated December 22, 2004…and I haven’t had the time/energy/motivation to put much into it since then.
As per the thread surrounding that document at that time (Dec…2004…), I’ll take any (preferably documented…) new information and add it in, AND add in the acknowledgments…I have some time this weekend to get back up to date on that, so I will (and this is a public promise, so there you go).
As Clint mentioned above, where there is a perceived deficiency, what are YOU going to do about it?
Edit - Bree 15, 16, and 17 first published this document in 3 parts, June/July/August 2002. I also spent some time putting together a Best of Bree pdf one day, attempting to organize the many articles by Scenario, Strategy, Nations, etc. Sent off to Colin F I believe, that was a while ago too. Maybe I’ll find that one again too…
[QUOTE=Celebion]
My personal opinion is that many of the “old guard” of players likes to think of themselves as an elitist group. Probably due to low self-esteem problems in general. (UNQUOTE)
Sir Astronomer: I know you are not talking about me. Afterall, this thread starts with me sharing my knowledge (or lack of it) with S.M. ----in public, no less.
But there may be some elitism involved. Lets turn the telescope around:
“Tell me everything. I don’t want to solve puzzles for it. I don’t want to explore the unknown for it. I don’t want to back-engineer anything. I don’t want to work for it. I want to know everything and I deserve it because----well, I am who I am.”
This game may be played on many levels. By all means play on the level that gives you the most enjoyment. Just understand that is not the only level that exists.
Just to clarify, the team, after a bit of shaking down, actually worked together pretty well. Won a 65 turn game, although that might have been because we bored the opposition into submission. [Think their side fell apart because several of their players dropped for whatever reason, whereas, apart from a couple of players early on we stayed the same group throughout].
In the case in question, I was playing the Noldor and the suggestion was tooling up Glorfindel as a dragon-slayer because we were having some problems with the DS getting wyrms. I asked a few questions about what sort of level challenge you needed, the mechanism involved and whether anybody in the team had actually done it before as some of the quotes people were making sounded like they had heard of it but never actually done it. Partly because of this and partly because the player who was mostly pushing the idea had as a victory condition killing Glorfinedel. In hindsight I don’t think this was a factor but not knowing him at the time, as it was early in the game, I was cautious. However, as I never got a clear answer to my questions I didn’t want to risk it.
There were a number of cases in that game where I asked questions and they never got answered, or I had to ask a couple of times. Possibly because several of the players were active in a number of games and this was also quite active they got lost in the flood so to speak. Don’t think anyone was actively anti-social but for a newcomer it can be a bit awkward having to press a point because you’re not getting an answer.
What exactly would you have me do? Write an article? Bit*h about the inequities and vagries of hidden rules (which I just can’t believe is really due to some vast plot to deprive me of my rightful gaming experience) or play the game and enjoy myself? If you cannot see the irony or the perceived sarcasm in my previous post then you are taking this entire gaming experience way too seriously (IMHO).
And the social team/community building aspects of this or any virtually non-humanistic electronic experience is nothing more than whatever one perceives it to be. I can and do interact well in a team environment, but I’m sure not going to lose much sleep if I contribute to a team loss due to an aforeunknown ‘gotcha’ within the game. Nor can I perceive that to be a social disaster.
I’m really too old to worry about ‘saving face’ nor do I care much what other people may percieve as causing me (actually themselves) embarassment. Been embarassed before and will be again (should I live just half as long as I have already). Humility builds character. Whether one embraces it or not. It’s inevitable unless one lives in a cave.
…should that knowledge, along with the fact that there is a finite limit to pop centers, kidnaps, challenges, artifacts held, skill rank thresholds for successful accomplishment of any task and, a laundry list of things a novice should never, never, under any circumstances attempt because it might disrupt your gaming knowledge especially if, horror of horrors, that action might actually result in the program generating the precise random number that makes it successful be known, quantified and precisely calcuatable?
Why try something with a 2% chance of succeeding? And the artifact bit is in the rules, is it not? Seems like misplaced passive-agression here…
I’m thouroughly confused. And I think I’ve lost the essence of the original premise that started this thread. As we gain more and more experience as a community of gamers are we then left with only playing with beginners as the only way to protect our investment in the knowldege of the game mechanics?
You were right at the start, you’re confused and lost the premise…should have stopped there…
IT’S A GAME! If you need to take it this seriously then you need to let go of the mouse and step away from the keyboard 'cause it’s stopped being entertainment and become life!
If you’re trying to be ironic, I assure you, I get it…but I don’t think you are…tsk tsk…
Please don’t take anything I may post here personally. And if my ramblings seem off topic or too obtuse to decypher or interpret, well, it must be a senior thing on my part (disjointed ramblings due to early onset demensia).
You asked what I would have you do. I would have you check out the document, that’s been published and distributed on more than one occasion, and forward your comments, corrections, requests for clarifications. Are you an editor? Can you rewrite some of it? Is it worthy of distribution? Do you know anyone who might be interested in it? Would you keep an updated copy and forward to your teammates every game? Is it crap? Is it good enough to lobby Clint to include with every game set up? There are things people can do. How can we help cut through much of the fog and help bring up the overall level of play? I’ve been quite active for years in writing and publishing and distributing various articles, info sheets, too many ignored speeches to teammates (who ask) on certain aspects of play (most of which is in the Order Companion) etc.
Mind you, my point during most of this thread is that it doesn’t really matter, and it’s up to the individual themselves to find a way. When I started this game I read up on it, read the rules, researched on the web, read the articles, etc. I got addicted and spent some time and energy searching for answers and new information. People who take it upon themselves, believe they’re both entitled to rewards earned AND responsible for consequences caused, will be fine. They will accept the lessons and learn to fish for themselves. Too many others want you to give them a fish, and then another, and then another, and then another, never having the time or inclination to learn the task themselves. My document won’t help them any more than the rules they already haven’t read…
Excellent. It seems that your approach to the game and to mentoring others is to be commended. My approach is somewhat different. I would be willing to share any knowledge that I have gleaned from playing but since I have very limited experience I don’t have much to share. About the game that is. I have been a devote of Tolkien for close to forty years and have some knowledge of the world the game is set in. Differences noted of course. The major differences being the role playing aspects, or lack thereof. Something I would like to see more of. But then that takes a different kind of dedication and mind-set. One that wouldn’t be concerned about how many fishes one can garner from others.
No I’m not an editor, but I will take the time to read your article. After which, I will post reactions, etc…
As promised, I’ve found my most recent copy of the previously attached Order Companion and quickly added in not only this Kidnap limit (which I was advised of last year by a contributer…but didn’t get it in then…) but a couple other items also. This document now has it’s own thread and is in up to date pdf format. Note, my friend mentioned “…kidnap limit, which I know exists and is more than 22…” I guess his Gunboat Cloud Lord had 22 hostages that game…
