Idea for end of game

mepbmlist
#21

Hmmmm... now I am wondering: if army icons and pop centers are all that will show, why does anyone even want the map?

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Brunet" <bbrunec296@rogers.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

The energy and effort is likely in the less than 5 minutes, 1 time, per game at game end.

I don't believe every responding here is aware of just what's at stake in regards to all this precious "information" that seems to require all this "protection".

It's a simple gif of all of ME that shows Pops and Armys of the allegiances. WHAT is everyone scared of...?

Brad Brunet

Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

So what you really want is the opportunity to brag? Let the game speak for itself. Here is an idea: how about investing the energy and effort that would be put into a player map into fixing fourth age.

Jason Mele

----- Original Message ----- From: Darrell Shimel
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

--- Mele wrote:

Do people really get banned for their opinions? If
so, ban me, because I am
full of opinions.

I got banned for a very short period of time. The
decision was quickly reversed and I did not have to
serve out my full sentance.

It wasn't officially for my opinion... Officially, it
was for "spamming".... However, EVERY post I made was
responding to someone else...

Infliction.... I mean.... Introduction of the Player
Rating System was a very ugly period for MEPBM....
One I'm sure NO ONE is in a hurry to repeat.

No map swap. Down with the map swap. Booooo map
swap. Off with the map
swap's head. I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf.
If someone else is gonna
pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

I still think it would be cool to get to see maps of
games I wasn't in.

Last time I was in a game when it ended, I did a
little right up as to our strategy, what went right,
worng, etc. Am I giving a little info away that will
help others against our grudge team in the future???
Sure, but frankly, most of our opposition needs ALL
the help they can get.

I'm already preparing the same thing for a current
grudge game I'm in that should be ending very soon....
More than words, it would be cool to be able to send
along a map showing that the WK owns Bree...... But
any map I produced would only show DS holdings... then
again, it seems the FP won't have any holdings by the
time this one ends.

Anyway, I'm steadfast in my support for game-end
maps... Up with game end maps.....

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#22

It's not that I don't see the difference, between
choice etc...., I just don't see why it's such a big
deal to share the info after a game is over.

Anyway, people would probably find out their really
not as original in their playing a nation as they
would like to think they are! :wink:

JCC

···

--- Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

We "choose" to share .pdf's with teamates. How can
you not see the difference? I don't pay $7.60 US to
instruct someone else... though I do pay it to
school them :stuck_out_tongue:

If you want to build a comprehensive map, ask each
nation for a copy of their .xml and, if they give
it, build the map. It is that simple.

Jason Mele
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Choules
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: Idea for end of game

  Do you share your pdf's and xml's with your team
  mates? If yes, what difference does sharing the
final
  maps with the whole board and, or opposing team?

  JCC

  --- Torvanus <torvanus@yahoo.com> wrote:

  >
  > --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Drukarzun
  > <drukarzun@y...> wrote:
  > > Clint,
  > >
  > > I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this
  > idea. Players
  > already have the option of swapping PDFs and
XMLs
  > with their
  > opposition if they so choose. Some games, I
  > wouldn't mind sharing;
  > other games, maybe I had a few tricks up my
sleeve
  > that I wouldn't
  > want the opposition to know about. A
GM-created,
  > final palantir map
  > is an idea that needs to go away.
  > >
  > > Drew Carson
  >
  >
  > What he said! Wow, someone agrees with me :wink:
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >

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#23

Brad, my definition of dumbing-down the game is to make things too easy for players. While we're going down this road, why don't we commission someone to write a front-end utility that actually suggests what orders to give and where to move?

If someone has to look at a map of actual game-ending popcenters to say, gee what a neat place to put a pop, then maybe they're too "dumb" to have figured it out themsleves (not necessarily dumb but maybe unable to think outside the box); if they're wondering where that last MT was, maybe they're not adept enough to figure out how to get that info within the game, it's not that tough. If you want the opposition's info after the game is over, ASK them for it. What's so radical about that?

Clint himself did mention consent of players, I believe, or at least subsequently agreed to it.

What's to dumb down? Make it the Simple Colour Scheme map. What can a gif show that'll "dumb down" the game? An off-map pop? An icon showing an army in an odd place? Who's to say which nation even owns said pop or army anyway? If anything, someone else might say "what a neat place to put a pop"... that is actually the opposite of "dumbing down".

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun wrote:

Darrell -- you have made a huge assumption there. Clint's original post said nothing about consent of the players; that was something mentioned by subsequent posters. I am steadfast in my opposition to this bad idea, for one overarching reason: you already have the opportunity to swap files with your opponents. Why does it seem everyone wants to continually dumb-down this game?

Drew

Darrell Shimel wrote:
I disagree. I think it is a great idea. Assuming, of
course, every nation in the game wants the map
released. One person doesn't want it released, then it
isn't. Should be ample protection for those that want
there secrets protected.

--- Drukarzun wrote:

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea.
Players already have the option of swapping PDFs
and XMLs with their opposition if they so choose.
Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games,
maybe I had a few tricks up my sleeve that I
wouldn't want the opposition to know about. A
GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs
to go away.

Drew Carson

ME Games Ltd wrote:
A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map for
the end of a game. I
can see some pros and cons for this.

Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it when
we do the game end stuff
that we do.

Clint

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#24

Actually, you pay for the service: the files are a record of the provision
of that service.

Copyright in them is retained by the game's owners.

Gavin the Picky

Mele wrote:

···

I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

#25

Possibly they're scared of the revelation that "we wiped 'em off the map and
had tons of pop centres all over the place" was, in fact, a bit of a fib...?
:slight_smile:

Other than that, I can't think of a single reason not to publish game end
maps.

Gavin

Brad Brunet wrote:

···

I don't believe every responding here is aware of just what's at stake in
regards to all this precious "information" that seems to require all this
"protection".

It's a simple gif of all of ME that shows Pops and Armys of the allegiances.
WHAT is everyone scared of...?

#26

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already have the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had a few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know about. A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

As a player I don't like it either. But as it was suggested by a different player I thought that I'd offer it out and get some feedback. I think an opt in or out option might be the best solution here.

Clint

···

Drew Carson

ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map for the end of a game. I
can see some pros and cons for this.

Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it when we do the game end stuff
that we do.

Clint

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#27

We can have variant games then for those that want full disclosure
and those feel that their info should be shared on the their terms.

I know I would drop all my GB games if maps were published but I am
but one person. Regardless of how unique or mundane my style of play
is; I feel it is my choice to release (or not) my parts of the data
in any game that I PAID FOR.

Steven McAbee

Actually, you pay for the service: the files are a record of the

provision

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

of that service.

Copyright in them is retained by the game's owners.

Gavin the Picky

Mele wrote:

> I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
> pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

#28

Because some would find it interesting.

Since it can do absolutely nothing at all to harm anyone, and won't provide any information to anyone that can possibly affect anyone's enjoyment out of their following games in any rationally feasible way..then if you're not interested, delete the file.

Those of us who like looking at maps will look at it. Not so difficult. Some people like old cars, others like new planes, c'est la vie.

Brad

Hmmmm... now I am wondering: if army icons and pop centers are all that
will show, why does anyone even want the map?

Jason Mele

···

Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Brunet"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

The energy and effort is likely in the less than 5 minutes, 1 time, per game
at game end.

I don't believe every responding here is aware of just what's at stake in
regards to all this precious "information" that seems to require all this
"protection".

It's a simple gif of all of ME that shows Pops and Armys of the allegiances.
WHAT is everyone scared of...?

Brad Brunet

Mele wrote:

So what you really want is the opportunity to brag? Let the game speak for
itself. Here is an idea: how about investing the energy and effort that
would be put into a player map into fixing fourth age.

Jason Mele

----- Original Message -----
From: Darrell Shimel
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

--- Mele wrote:

Do people really get banned for their opinions? If
so, ban me, because I am
full of opinions.

I got banned for a very short period of time. The
decision was quickly reversed and I did not have to
serve out my full sentance.

It wasn't officially for my opinion... Officially, it
was for "spamming".... However, EVERY post I made was
responding to someone else...

Infliction.... I mean.... Introduction of the Player
Rating System was a very ugly period for MEPBM....
One I'm sure NO ONE is in a hurry to repeat.

No map swap. Down with the map swap. Booooo map
swap. Off with the map
swap's head. I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf.
If someone else is gonna
pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

I still think it would be cool to get to see maps of
games I wasn't in.

Last time I was in a game when it ended, I did a
little right up as to our strategy, what went right,
worng, etc. Am I giving a little info away that will
help others against our grudge team in the future???
Sure, but frankly, most of our opposition needs ALL
the help they can get.

I'm already preparing the same thing for a current
grudge game I'm in that should be ending very soon....
More than words, it would be cool to be able to send
along a map showing that the WK owns Bree...... But
any map I produced would only show DS holdings... then
again, it seems the FP won't have any holdings by the
time this one ends.

Anyway, I'm steadfast in my support for game-end
maps... Up with game end maps.....

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#29

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely ENTHUSIASTIC about this idea. Players who
are so utterly secretive that they want to hide even their final turn's
Pop Center locations have to be in a very small minority here. Either
that, or there is a LOT more paranoia going on out there than I would
have thought! :wink:

A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Mike Mulka

From: Drukarzun [mailto:drukarzun@yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already

have

the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had

a

few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know

about.

···

-----Original Message-----
A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

Drew Carson

#30

Now Mike, you're only paranoid if they're *not* really out to get you. <g> And I guess I can't cry plagiarism, as my full text is appended at the end. <g>

Urzahil <urzahil@darkfortress.us> wrote:Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely ENTHUSIASTIC about this idea. Players who
are so utterly secretive that they want to hide even their final turn's
Pop Center locations have to be in a very small minority here. Either
that, or there is a LOT more paranoia going on out there than I would
have thought! :wink:

A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Mike Mulka

From: Drukarzun [mailto:drukarzun@yahoo.com]
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already

have

the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had

a

few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know

about.

A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

Drew Carson

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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#31

Like said before. If everyone in the game wants it,
then provide it. if not, if someone objects, then
don't. Not sure why we have to debate it so much -
some people don't want it, then that is their right.
No way to force them. So opt it in for those who
want, and if 1/20 players doesn't want it in the gam
then it doesn't happen - too bad.

JB

···

--- Urzahil <urzahil@darkfortress.us> wrote:

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely ENTHUSIASTIC about
this idea. Players who
are so utterly secretive that they want to hide even
their final turn's
Pop Center locations have to be in a very small
minority here. Either
that, or there is a LOT more paranoia going on out
there than I would
have thought! :wink:

A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that
NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Mike Mulka

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Drukarzun [mailto:drukarzun@yahoo.com]
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game
>
>Clint,
>
>I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this
idea. Players already
have
>the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their
opposition if they so
>choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other
games, maybe I had
a
>few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the
opposition to know
about.
>A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that
needs to go away.
>
>Drew Carson

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

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#32

Do people really get banned for their opinions? If
so, ban me, because I am
full of opinions.

I got banned for a very short period of time. The
decision was quickly reversed and I did not have to
serve out my full sentance.

It wasn't officially for my opinion... Officially, it
was for "spamming".... However, EVERY post I made was
responding to someone else...

Infliction.... I mean.... Introduction of the Player
Rating System was a very ugly period for MEPBM....
One I'm sure NO ONE is in a hurry to repeat.

No map swap. Down with the map swap. Booooo map
swap. Off with the map
swap's head. I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf.
If someone else is gonna
pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

I still think it would be cool to get to see maps of
games I wasn't in.

Last time I was in a game when it ended, I did a
little right up as to our strategy, what went right,
worng, etc. Am I giving a little info away that will
help others against our grudge team in the future???
Sure, but frankly, most of our opposition needs ALL
the help they can get.

I'm already preparing the same thing for a current
grudge game I'm in that should be ending very soon....
More than words, it would be cool to be able to send
along a map showing that the WK owns Bree...... But
any map I produced would only show DS holdings... then
again, it seems the FP won't have any holdings by the
time this one ends.

Anyway, I'm steadfast in my support for game-end
maps... Up with game end maps.....

···

--- Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

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#33

Probably because we haven't had a really good debate
about anything on this list for a coon's age! :slight_smile:

JCC

···

--- John Briggs <john_h_briggs@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not sure why we have to debate it so much -

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#34

I don't write the game reports to brag. More like
sharing a story of how a game "went down". Let others
get some enjoyment out of the money I spent.

Fixing 4th age? Unfixable given the current code
base. Once the code is ported to PC, maybe FA can be
fixed.... Put "Access to Spirt Mastery" artifacts
back. Make the best artifacts much easier to find in
the sea of +500 artifacts. Much larger starting pop
base so that characters don't dominate military nearly
so badly.

···

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#35

Don't we pay for the turns? Don't you sell them to us? Aren't they then
an information commodity? So absolutely, it must be an opt in system. You
don't have the right to resell, or give away something you've already sold
to me. I certainly wouldn't agree to my final turns being published. So
there's no crazed activism here, quite a few of us fundamentally opposed to
the idea.

[]
     Laurence G.Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 21:46 09/02/2005, you wrote:

>I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already have
>the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
>choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had a
>few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know
>about. A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

As a player I don't like it either. But as it was suggested by a different
player I thought that I'd offer it out and get some feedback. I think an
opt in or out option might be the best solution here.

#36

True, though someone who is clinically "paranoid" can still have people
actually out to get them. :wink:

Mike Mulka

From: Drukarzun [mailto:drukarzun@yahoo.com]
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

Now Mike, you're only paranoid if they're *not* really out to get you.

<g>

And I guess I can't cry plagiarism, as my full text is appended at the

end.

···

-----Original Message-----
<g>

#37

Fixing 4th age? Unfixable given the current code
base. Once the code is ported to PC, maybe FA can be
fixed.... Put "Access to Spirt Mastery" artifacts
back. Make the best artifacts much easier to find in
the sea of +500 artifacts. Much larger starting pop
base so that characters don't dominate military nearly
so badly.

Some of this has been done.

Clint

···

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#38

Right! Especially the doctor.
Ed

···

From: "Urzahil" <urzahil@darkfortress.us>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:57:24 -0600

True, though someone who is clinically "paranoid" can still have people
actually out to get them. :wink:

Mike Mulka

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Drukarzun [mailto:drukarzun@yahoo.com]
>Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game
>
>Now Mike, you're only paranoid if they're *not* really out to get you.
<g>
>And I guess I can't cry plagiarism, as my full text is appended at the
end.
><g>

#39

Whatever. For 8 bucks, every two weeks, I get 2 files. If I don't get what I want, or if I get more or less than I think my money is worth, I stop sending hundreds of dollars. Get it?

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Gavinwj
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  Actually, you pay for the service: the files are a record of the provision
  of that service.

  Copyright in them is retained by the game's owners.

  Gavin the Picky

  Mele wrote:

  > I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
  > pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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#40

It has got to be some kind of bragging thing.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Gavinwj
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  Possibly they're scared of the revelation that "we wiped 'em off the map and
  had tons of pop centres all over the place" was, in fact, a bit of a fib...?
  :-)

  Other than that, I can't think of a single reason not to publish game end
  maps.

  Gavin

  Brad Brunet wrote:

  > I don't believe every responding here is aware of just what's at stake in
  > regards to all this precious "information" that seems to require all this
  > "protection".
  >
  > It's a simple gif of all of ME that shows Pops and Armys of the allegiances.
  > WHAT is everyone scared of...?

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