Idea for end of game

mepbmlist
#41

Then how about they ask everyone else for files and build the map? I feel that there is something inherently wrong here: some people like old cars, some people like planes, and some people like no map for everyone else. C'est la vie.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  Because some would find it interesting.

  Since it can do absolutely nothing at all to harm anyone, and won't provide any information to anyone that can possibly affect anyone's enjoyment out of their following games in any rationally feasible way..then if you're not interested, delete the file.

  Those of us who like looking at maps will look at it. Not so difficult. Some people like old cars, others like new planes, c'est la vie.

  Brad

  Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

  Hmmmm... now I am wondering: if army icons and pop centers are all that
  will show, why does anyone even want the map?

  Jason Mele

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Brad Brunet"
  To:
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  The energy and effort is likely in the less than 5 minutes, 1 time, per game
  at game end.

  I don't believe every responding here is aware of just what's at stake in
  regards to all this precious "information" that seems to require all this
  "protection".

  It's a simple gif of all of ME that shows Pops and Armys of the allegiances.
  WHAT is everyone scared of...?

  Brad Brunet

  Mele wrote:

  So what you really want is the opportunity to brag? Let the game speak for
  itself. Here is an idea: how about investing the energy and effort that
  would be put into a player map into fixing fourth age.

  Jason Mele

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Darrell Shimel
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  --- Mele wrote:
  > Do people really get banned for their opinions? If
  > so, ban me, because I am
  > full of opinions.

  I got banned for a very short period of time. The
  decision was quickly reversed and I did not have to
  serve out my full sentance.

  It wasn't officially for my opinion... Officially, it
  was for "spamming".... However, EVERY post I made was
  responding to someone else...

  Infliction.... I mean.... Introduction of the Player
  Rating System was a very ugly period for MEPBM....
  One I'm sure NO ONE is in a hurry to repeat.

  > No map swap. Down with the map swap. Booooo map
  > swap. Off with the map
  > swap's head. I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf.
  > If someone else is gonna
  > pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

  I still think it would be cool to get to see maps of
  games I wasn't in.

  Last time I was in a game when it ended, I did a
  little right up as to our strategy, what went right,
  worng, etc. Am I giving a little info away that will
  help others against our grudge team in the future???
  Sure, but frankly, most of our opposition needs ALL
  the help they can get.

  I'm already preparing the same thing for a current
  grudge game I'm in that should be ending very soon....
  More than words, it would be cool to be able to send
  along a map showing that the WK owns Bree...... But
  any map I produced would only show DS holdings... then
  again, it seems the FP won't have any holdings by the
  time this one ends.

  Anyway, I'm steadfast in my support for game-end
  maps... Up with game end maps.....

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#42

I would do the same.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Torvanus
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:48 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Idea for end of game

  We can have variant games then for those that want full disclosure
  and those feel that their info should be shared on the their terms.

  I know I would drop all my GB games if maps were published but I am
  but one person. Regardless of how unique or mundane my style of play
  is; I feel it is my choice to release (or not) my parts of the data
  in any game that I PAID FOR.

  Steven McAbee

  --- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:
  > Actually, you pay for the service: the files are a record of the
  provision
  > of that service.
  >
  > Copyright in them is retained by the game's owners.
  >
  > Gavin the Picky
  >
  > Mele wrote:
  >
  > > I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
  > > pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

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#43

That is the only fair method.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ME Games Ltd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  >I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already have
  >the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
  >choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had a
  >few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know
  >about. A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

  As a player I don't like it either. But as it was suggested by a different
  player I thought that I'd offer it out and get some feedback. I think an
  opt in or out option might be the best solution here.

  Clint

  >
  >Drew Carson
  >
  >ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
  >A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map for the end of a game. I
  >can see some pros and cons for this.
  >
  >Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it when we do the game end stuff
  >that we do.
  >
  >Clint
  >
  >
  >
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#44

They tell me character data of other nations in the end game reports, they already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years ago. Who's complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information is getting out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece for those who are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the game. I already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are published for all to see already.

Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not sending out this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff? Besides the "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody wants your xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations. What exactly is the problem with that?

Brad Brunet

#45

There are 2 standard scenarios (1650/2950) PLUS fourth age. Any given player could utilize a similar camp placement strategy OR military priority plan from game to game within the same scenario. Publishing the map gives other players a capacity to unfairly detect similarities in a particular player's posture from game to game within a given scenario.

If that information was gathered throughout the course of the game, then great. It should not, however, be given out after the game is finished unless a player wishes it so.

Gunboat is another excellent example. A completely unfair advantage can be gained against a particular duo because an enemy player recognizes a particular player's pop placement or improvement strategy OR military priority.

Don't get me wrong... I would love to receive other player's map info so that I could scrutinize it and look for similarities on a game-to-game basis within a particular scenario. A quality player will find them and abuse the information... I know I would.

Now you have some "bona fide" reasons.

So, back to your question, "What exactly
is the problem with that?"

The answere: quality players will find a method to use that information to their advantage. If you don't see the possibilities, I suppose I shouldn't give out too many ideas.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] end game map

  They tell me character data of other nations in the end game reports, they
  already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years ago. Who's
  complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information is getting
  out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece for those who
  are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the game. I
  already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your
  personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are published for
  all to see already.

  Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not sending out
  this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff? Besides the
  "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody wants your
  xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations. What exactly
  is the problem with that?

  Brad Brunet

  Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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#46

Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need, you
just refuse to accept it. Saying something repeatedly and trying to
get in the last word doesn't mean you win a debate. Some of us are
*really* opposed to the idea -- you may be only "talking about a map
that doesn't identify nations" but the rest of us are talking about
something far deeper. I don't want to hear about the technical
legalities of who owns the information; this is an issue that strikes
to the core of player confidetiality, especially in gunboat. I don't
want any of my info shared against my will. What exactly is the
problem with that? When in doubt, maintain the status quo. And
since you asked, I don't like the top character info at the end of
the game either; I don't complain because I know there is absolutely
nothing I can do about it, opting out, etc. As I said earlier, as
long as Clint & co. give us the option of not including our data or
vetoing a map for any particular game, I can live with the concept.
(Hell, I can *live* with the concept either way, it won't kill me.
<g> I just won't like it.)

Drew

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Brunet" <bbrunec296@r...>
wrote:

They tell me character data of other nations in the end game

reports, they

already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years

ago. Who's

complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information

is getting

out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece for

those who

are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the

game. I

already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your
personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are

published for

all to see already.

Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not

sending out

this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff?

Besides the

"I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody

wants your

xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations.

What exactly

···

is the problem with that?

Brad Brunet

#47

well..........this game has been played a very long time....i doubt
there are to many new strategies left.....and if you are predictable
then you deserve to get a whooping eventually.......my .pdf is mine
and if i have pop centers on my .pdf that no one can see then i think
i have the right to not let anyone know.

maybe the winning team should be able to see the whole map since they
are the new rulers of the world kinda a little perk to winning.

There are 2 standard scenarios (1650/2950) PLUS fourth age. Any

given player could utilize a similar camp placement strategy OR
military priority plan from game to game within the same scenario.
Publishing the map gives other players a capacity to unfairly detect
similarities in a particular player's posture from game to game
within a given scenario.

If that information was gathered throughout the course of the game,

then great. It should not, however, be given out after the game is
finished unless a player wishes it so.

Gunboat is another excellent example. A completely unfair

advantage can be gained against a particular duo because an enemy
player recognizes a particular player's pop placement or improvement
strategy OR military priority.

Don't get me wrong... I would love to receive other player's map

info so that I could scrutinize it and look for similarities on a
game-to-game basis within a particular scenario. A quality player
will find them and abuse the information... I know I would.

Now you have some "bona fide" reasons.

So, back to your question, "What exactly
is the problem with that?"

The answere: quality players will find a method to use that

information to their advantage. If you don't see the possibilities,
I suppose I shouldn't give out too many ideas.

Jason Mele

  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] end game map

  They tell me character data of other nations in the end game

reports, they

  already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years

ago. Who's

  complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information

is getting

  out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece

for those who

  are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the

game. I

  already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your
  personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are

published for

  all to see already.

  Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not

sending out

  this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff?

Besides the

  "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody

wants your

  xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations.

What exactly

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mele" <necron99@c...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----
  is the problem with that?

  Brad Brunet

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#48

Darrell -- you have made a huge assumption there. Clint's original post
said nothing about consent of the players; that was something mentioned by
subsequent posters. I am steadfast in my opposition to this bad idea, for
one overarching reason: you already have the opportunity to swap files with
your opponents. Why does it seem everyone wants to continually dumb-down
this game?

Drew

RD: I agree with Drew. Players can already swap as much or as little info
with opponents at game end as they want to. There is no need for the GM to
do this, and it's a downright BAD thing especially if some players - even a
tiny minority - do NOT want it.

Clint, please channel the efforts of yourself and your staff into areas that
DO need fixing, eg, rationalizing the cumbersome naval orders, and making it
impossible for big challengers to walk unseen into hidden pops.

Richard.

I disagree. I think it is a great idea. Assuming, of
course, every nation in the game wants the map
released. One person doesn't want it released, then it
isn't. Should be ample protection for those that want
there secrets protected.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drukarzun" <drukarzun@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

Clint,

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea.
Players already have the option of swapping PDFs
and XMLs with their opposition if they so choose.
Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games,
maybe I had a few tricks up my sleeve that I
wouldn't want the opposition to know about. A
GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs
to go away.

Drew Carson

ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map for
the end of a game. I
can see some pros and cons for this.

Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it when
we do the game end stuff
that we do.

Clint

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#49

So what you're saying is, it isn't fair to take advantage of another
player's inflexibility and lack of adaptability...?

Gavin

Mele wrote:

···

There are 2 standard scenarios (1650/2950) PLUS fourth age. Any given player
could utilize a similar camp placement strategy OR military priority plan from
game to game within the same scenario. Publishing the map gives other players
a capacity to unfairly detect similarities in a particular player's posture
from game to game within a given scenario.

If that information was gathered throughout the course of the game, then
great. It should not, however, be given out after the game is finished unless
a player wishes it so.

Gunboat is another excellent example. A completely unfair advantage can be
gained against a particular duo because an enemy player recognizes a
particular player's pop placement or improvement strategy OR military
priority.

Don't get me wrong... I would love to receive other player's map info so that
I could scrutinize it and look for similarities on a game-to-game basis within
a particular scenario. A quality player will find them and abuse the
information... I know I would.

Now you have some "bona fide" reasons.

So, back to your question, "What exactly
is the problem with that?"

The answere: quality players will find a method to use that information to
their advantage. If you don't see the possibilities, I suppose I shouldn't
give out too many ideas.

Jason Mele

----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Brunet
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] end game map

They tell me character data of other nations in the end game reports, they
already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years ago. Who's
complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information is getting
out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece for those who
are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the game. I
already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your
personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are published for
all to see already.

Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not sending out
this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff? Besides the
"I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody wants your
xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations. What exactly
is the problem with that?

Brad Brunet

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#50

We can have variant games then for those that want full disclosure
and those feel that their info should be shared on the their terms.

I know I would drop all my GB games if maps were published but I am
but one person. Regardless of how unique or mundane my style of play
is; I feel it is my choice to release (or not) my parts of the data
in any game that I PAID FOR.

Steven McAbee

RD: yup, agree absolutely,

Richard.

Actually, you pay for the service: the files are a record of the

provision

of that service.

Copyright in them is retained by the game's owners.

Gavin the Picky

Mele wrote:

> I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
> pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

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···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Torvanus" <torvanus@yahoo.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: Idea for end of game

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Gavinwj <gavinwj@c...> wrote:

#51

I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already have
the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had a
few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know
about. A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.

As a player I don't like it either. But as it was suggested by a different
player I thought that I'd offer it out and get some feedback. I think an
opt in or out option might be the best solution here.

Clint

RD: Why make extra work for yourself and your staff? If players want to
swap end of game info, they can already swap as much or as little as they
want. There is no NEED for the company to provide a facility which
satisfies neither the party that wants to swap lots of info nor the party
that wants to swap none.

And if a single player out of a possible 25 can veto the use of this
facility, it ain't gonna get used very often, is it? It's a red herring!
MEPBM games should use its precious resources to fix things that need
fixing, not creating add-ons that will rarely if ever be used.

Richard.

Drew Carson

A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map for the end of a game. I
can see some pros and cons for this.

Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it when we do the game end

stuff

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "ME Games Ltd" <me@MiddleEarthGames.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
that we do.

Clint

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#52

It would be an automated process, if done right. So no extra work after
initial set up of the routine.

Gavin

richard devereux wrote:

···

RD: Why make extra work for yourself and your staff?

#53

That's always been made public at the end of games, and that fact is known,
it's therefore not a proposed change in the financial arrangement between
the consumer and the seller. Knowing that the character with the highest
challenge rank at the end of the game was Elrond, is not the same as giving
away maps which give insight into players' favoured strategic plays.

[]
     Laurence G.Tilley

http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 05:35 10/02/2005, Brad Brunet wrote:

They tell me character data of other nations in the end game reports, they
already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years ago. Who's
complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information is getting
out to the masses?

#54

I'm for the map only if everyone agrees, jsut so you
know where I am coming from.

But I have to say - who is going to spend THAT much
time on things? A gif wont tell you whose camp is
whose, and even if you did know .... you are going to
write down every players name, their camping strategy
over the course of say 4-5 games (1 game is not enough
to tell habits from), and then have this referenced in
case you play that player again? And who plays the
same nation over and over again? I've played many
games on the WC 1650 Aussie Grudge team, guys I've
known for years and let me tell you, they change their
minds and strategies just about every day. So after
20 games with them, who I know well, personally I
can't see developing player bios and strategies on the
ME universe.

Who has that kind of time? If anyone does, then you
guys should be doing Habitat for Humanity or
something.

JB

···

--- Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

There are 2 standard scenarios (1650/2950) PLUS
fourth age. Any given player could utilize a
similar camp placement strategy OR military priority
plan from game to game within the same scenario.
Publishing the map gives other players a capacity to
unfairly detect similarities in a particular
player's posture from game to game within a given
scenario.

If that information was gathered throughout the
course of the game, then great. It should not,
however, be given out after the game is finished
unless a player wishes it so.

Gunboat is another excellent example. A completely
unfair advantage can be gained against a particular
duo because an enemy player recognizes a particular
player's pop placement or improvement strategy OR
military priority.

Don't get me wrong... I would love to receive other
player's map info so that I could scrutinize it and
look for similarities on a game-to-game basis within
a particular scenario. A quality player will find
them and abuse the information... I know I would.

Now you have some "bona fide" reasons.

So, back to your question, "What exactly
is the problem with that?"

The answere: quality players will find a method to
use that information to their advantage. If you
don't see the possibilities, I suppose I shouldn't
give out too many ideas.

Jason Mele

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] end game map

  They tell me character data of other nations in
the end game reports, they
  already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided
years and years ago. Who's
  complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid
For information is getting
  out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a
curiosity piece for those who
  are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at
the end of the game. I
  already know who had the most kills, the most
mithril, and your
  personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid
For VP's are published for
  all to see already.

  Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide
REASONS for not sending out
  this extra service along with the rest of the End
Game stuff? Besides the
  "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants
your pdf, nobody wants your
  xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't
identify nations. What exactly
  is the problem with that?

  Brad Brunet

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#55

Yeah, lets jsut let this one go already. Any player
has veto policy, and let it go.

JB

···

--- drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world
you need, you
just refuse to accept it. Saying something
repeatedly and trying to
get in the last word doesn't mean you win a debate.
Some of us are
*really* opposed to the idea -- you may be only
"talking about a map
that doesn't identify nations" but the rest of us
are talking about
something far deeper. I don't want to hear about
the technical
legalities of who owns the information; this is an
issue that strikes
to the core of player confidetiality, especially in
gunboat. I don't
want any of my info shared against my will. What
exactly is the
problem with that? When in doubt, maintain the
status quo. And
since you asked, I don't like the top character info
at the end of
the game either; I don't complain because I know
there is absolutely
nothing I can do about it, opting out, etc. As I
said earlier, as
long as Clint & co. give us the option of not
including our data or
vetoing a map for any particular game, I can live
with the concept.
(Hell, I can *live* with the concept either way, it
won't kill me.
<g> I just won't like it.)

Drew

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Brunet"
<bbrunec296@r...>
wrote:
> They tell me character data of other nations in
the end game
reports, they
> already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided
years and years
ago. Who's
> complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid
For information
is getting
> out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a
curiosity piece for
those who
> are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at
the end of the
game. I
> already know who had the most kills, the most
mithril, and your
> personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid
For VP's are
published for
> all to see already.
>
> Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide
REASONS for not
sending out
> this extra service along with the rest of the End
Game stuff?
Besides the
> "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants
your pdf, nobody
wants your
> xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't
identify nations.
What exactly
> is the problem with that?
>
> Brad Brunet

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#56

HEAR HEAR. NEXT SUBJECT

···

-------------------------------

RD: Why make extra work for yourself and your staff?
If players want to
swap end of game info, they can already swap as much
or as little as they
want. There is no NEED for the company to provide a
facility which
satisfies neither the party that wants to swap lots of
info nor the party
that wants to swap none.

And if a single player out of a possible 25 can veto
the use of this
facility, it ain't gonna get used very often, is it?
It's a red herring!
MEPBM games should use its precious resources to fix
things that need
fixing, not creating add-ons that will rarely if ever
be used.

Richard.

=====
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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

#57

Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need, you
just refuse to accept it.

BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap. The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who is what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or composition, it's so virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go over the maps for so many games so often coincidentally against the same people playing the same nations and doing the exact same things (guys, off map is off map...there are no secrets...) that this entire argument of giving things away is quite funny actually.

For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should be very thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of his business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill what is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing. Any other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into action and provided it starting immediately as a service enhancement (that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.

Brad Brunet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

#58

What I am saying is that a player shouldn't be required to hand you that information. You can figure it out for yourself. At any rate, what I say is correct. If something works, it will be used until it doesn't.

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Gavinwj
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] end game map

  So what you're saying is, it isn't fair to take advantage of another
  player's inflexibility and lack of adaptability...?

  Gavin

  Mele wrote:

  >
  >
  > There are 2 standard scenarios (1650/2950) PLUS fourth age. Any given player
  > could utilize a similar camp placement strategy OR military priority plan from
  > game to game within the same scenario. Publishing the map gives other players
  > a capacity to unfairly detect similarities in a particular player's posture
  > from game to game within a given scenario.
  >
  > If that information was gathered throughout the course of the game, then
  > great. It should not, however, be given out after the game is finished unless
  > a player wishes it so.
  >
  > Gunboat is another excellent example. A completely unfair advantage can be
  > gained against a particular duo because an enemy player recognizes a
  > particular player's pop placement or improvement strategy OR military
  > priority.
  >
  > Don't get me wrong... I would love to receive other player's map info so that
  > I could scrutinize it and look for similarities on a game-to-game basis within
  > a particular scenario. A quality player will find them and abuse the
  > information... I know I would.
  >
  > Now you have some "bona fide" reasons.
  >
  > So, back to your question, "What exactly
  > is the problem with that?"
  >
  > The answere: quality players will find a method to use that information to
  > their advantage. If you don't see the possibilities, I suppose I shouldn't
  > give out too many ideas.
  >
  > Jason Mele
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Brad Brunet
  > To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 AM
  > Subject: [mepbmlist] end game map
  >
  >
  > They tell me character data of other nations in the end game reports, they
  > already tell me a lot, stuff that was decided years and years ago. Who's
  > complaining that this crucial, Personal, and Paid For information is getting
  > out to the masses? A Palantir gif is simply a curiosity piece for those who
  > are curious to see "what it Really looked like" at the end of the game. I
  > already know who had the most kills, the most mithril, and your
  > personal/private/strategically crucial and Paid For VP's are published for
  > all to see already.
  >
  > Could someone PLEASE give good actual bona fide REASONS for not sending out
  > this extra service along with the rest of the End Game stuff? Besides the
  > "I paid for my information" stuff. Nobody wants your pdf, nobody wants your
  > xml. We're talking about a map that doesn't identify nations. What exactly
  > is the problem with that?
  >
  > Brad Brunet
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
  > Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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#59

Do these debates generally degrade to using phrases like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"

Jason Mele

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map

  drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

  Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need, you
  just refuse to accept it.

  BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

  Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap. The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who is what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or composition, it's so virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go over the maps for so many games so often coincidentally against the same people playing the same nations and doing the exact same things (guys, off map is off map...there are no secrets...) that this entire argument of giving things away is quite funny actually.

  For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should be very thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of his business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill what is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing. Any other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into action and provided it starting immediately as a service enhancement (that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.

  Brad Brunet

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#60

I cant imagine they do...this must be an anomaly.

William

Do these debates generally degrade to using phrases

like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"

Jason Mele
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map

  drukarzun <drukarzun@y...> wrote:

  Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need, you
  just refuse to accept it.

  BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the

game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic
genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

  Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times

it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.
The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who is
what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or composition, it's so
virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go over the maps for so
many games so often coincidentally against the same people playing
the same nations and doing the exact same things (guys, off map is
off map...there are no secrets...) that this entire argument of
giving things away is quite funny actually.

  For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should be very

thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of his
business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill what
is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing. Any
other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into
action and provided it starting immediately as a service enhancement
(that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not
either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.

···

-- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mele" <necron99@c...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

  Brad Brunet

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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