Idea for end of game

mepbmlist
#81

Appreciate the eloquent reply. The key is:

"if some of his customers feel..." key word being "feel".

These feelings appear derived from a perceived threat. That threat is interpreted as agression towards those who feel this way (you use the word "betrayal"). Someone is going to do something to hurt you. You feel it.

My arguments have attempted to shed some light on the source of these feelings. The only source that has been communicated to me, has something to do with personal strategy or gaming style.

My arguments have attempted to educate those who feel this way that there is no threat, there is no agression, and nothing could come of this to hurt you or anyone else. Your gaming style and strategies are A) under no threat and B) neither unique nor special nor secret.

So, instead of being intractable and paternalistic, etc, I'll agree with your own statement, "[I] don't buy into it." I will rarely, if ever, buy into anything that is derived from feelings of insecurity and fear, converted into philisophical dogma (libertarianism...???) and simply repeated ad nauseum in order to overwhelm reasonable and rational discourse.

Brad Brunet

···

Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

There's nothing personal here Brad, you're probably a swell guy. (You used to have a "spectacular aura" about you even. ) You and I have the same facts, and come to different "logical" conclusions. I have stated my point, not repeatedly like you are wont to do, but nevertheless. My position is not horsecrap. I suppose I will try one last time, then I will shut up, even if I fail to get through to you!

Let me try a little different tack here. Forget about the technical legalities of whose information it is, I don't disagree with you there; let's talk customer service instead. Clint's customers employ his services to create and implement stratagems within a game environment. If some of his customers feel that releasing any data or information on their positions or style of play is to their detriment, they will view any releasing of their position's data against their will as a betrayal -- Clint (player) said himself he wasn't too keen on the idea. Perhaps it would compromise someone's playing style or future success, perhaps not. You don't have to buy into that; it's not really the point. You are of the opinion (correct me if I mischaracterize) that no one who plays the game is entitled to protect any information about their position, that it is "owned" by the company therefore fair game for dissemination after the game is over. I vehemently disagree; if you can't or didn't
figure something out about my position within the context of the game mechanics, then the game company should *not* be in the business of telling you anything about my position after-the-fact. If you ask me for it and I give it to you, it is a free exchange of information. If a player in the game writes up a summary, that is his right as a player; it's not something the game company itself out to be in the business of doing! Either the nuance is lost on you, or you and I have such radically different world-views that we will never be able to reconcile our differences of opinion. Basically, my argument is libertarian, your argument paternalistic.

Now, call all that horsecrap if you want, or call me a name, I really don't care. I *will* shut up now; I think Clint realizes now that deviating from the status quo on this issue is a can of worms. Bottom line: if you want an end-of-game map, ASK YOUR OPPONENTS TO SHARE THEIR DATA. Down with paternalism, up with a free market of ideas!

Drew

Brad Brunet wrote:
Then your experience is limited. I've changed my opinions before, publically on this list.

You say "logic" and then simply decree that the gamemaster shouldn't do something. No logic, no reasoning, more like preaching or commanding to me. Sorry, that won't do. If this is a personal thing with you, feel free to make it private between us, I'm keeping to the discussion here.

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun wrote:

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

Brad Brunet wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

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#82

Nicely put. If you want the game data find out in the game via
palantir scrys and scry area spells. There are game mechanics that
allow one to see other places.

For me is not even about off-map or not, it is privacy issue.

I personally think that if I saw the end-map that I would make some
deductions from it, others may not.

I see that this serves no real purpose other than a glitzy sort of
appearance for the curious and dare I say, lazy or perhaps
unmotivated is a better word.

Steve

There's nothing personal here Brad, you're probably a swell guy.

(You used to have a "spectacular aura" about you even. <g>) You and
I have the same facts, and come to different "logical" conclusions.
I have stated my point, not repeatedly like you are wont to do, but
nevertheless. My position is not horsecrap. I suppose I will try
one last time, then I will shut up, even if I fail to get through to
you! <g>

Let me try a little different tack here. Forget about the

technical legalities of whose information it is, I don't disagree
with you there; let's talk customer service instead. Clint's
customers employ his services to create and implement stratagems
within a game environment. If some of his customers feel that
releasing any data or information on their positions or style of play
is to their detriment, they will view any releasing of their
position's data against their will as a betrayal -- Clint (player)
said himself he wasn't too keen on the idea. Perhaps it would
compromise someone's playing style or future success, perhaps not.
You don't have to buy into that; it's not really the point. You are
of the opinion (correct me if I mischaracterize) that no one who
plays the game is entitled to protect any information about their
position, that it is "owned" by the company therefore fair game for
dissemination after the game is over. I vehemently disagree; if you
can't or didn't

figure something out about my position within the context of the

game mechanics, then the game company should *not* be in the business
of telling you anything about my position after-the-fact. If you ask
me for it and I give it to you, it is a free exchange of
information. If a player in the game writes up a summary, that is
his right as a player; it's not something the game company itself out
to be in the business of doing! Either the nuance is lost on you, or
you and I have such radically different world-views that we will
never be able to reconcile our differences of opinion. Basically, my
argument is libertarian, your argument paternalistic.

Now, call all that horsecrap if you want, or call me a name, I

really don't care. I *will* shut up now; I think Clint realizes now
that deviating from the status quo on this issue is a can of worms.
Bottom line: if you want an end-of-game map, ASK YOUR OPPONENTS TO
SHARE THEIR DATA. Down with paternalism, up with a free market of
ideas!

Drew

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@r...> wrote:
Then your experience is limited. I've changed my opinions before,

publically on this list.

You say "logic" and then simply decree that the gamemaster

shouldn't do something. No logic, no reasoning, more like preaching
or commanding to me. Sorry, that won't do. If this is a personal
thing with you, feel free to make it private between us, I'm keeping
to the discussion here.

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun <drukarzun@y...> wrote:

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree

with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet
is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the
situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to
logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you
want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game
master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

Brad Brunet wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game,

don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to
the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's

repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

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--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Drukarzun <drukarzun@y...> wrote:

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#83

Not ignoring anything. An end game map is exactly that - end, after, game over. The players cannot use this information. You contend they can learn from it. I contend that they already know, in fact Expect, that there are viable threats they can't see. You contend that they do not, and will use these end game maps to improve their gaming expertise for the next time. I can simply disagree with that and say "Not in my experience are players that dense."

Reasons for? It would improve my enjoyment of the game. I like to read history, this is the same thing, excepting it's a piece of fictional history of ME. Books with nicer fonts, better paper, more-useful-attractive illustrations are more popular than simple text. Same reason the company bothered to make your turn map colour instead of the old fashioned black and white. Improve the service. They send a text file of game end info that was originally developed, heck, decades ago now you could say in a stretch. This hasn't been added to or improved upon at all ever (that I'm aware). This is all I see it as. I didn't propose it to Clint, I didn't start this idea on the board (Clint did). But I love it, have always loved maps (not older cars...). As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, why not?

Reasons against: "It would not improve my enjoyment of the game." Nobody has told me why. Imagine, you've played a game. 45 turns, loads of fun. Days after "it's over", you get your end game email. In the event you open it and read the information, now it includes one more attachment - hey, look! It's a gif map created in Palantir that shows what was *actually* out there. You wouldn't be interested to look at it? Delete it. How does it affect your enjoyment of the game, that's already long over? How can the other team use this "information" to affect the game, that's already long over..?

"They would use it to hurt me in the future."

Well, I don't buy it at all. I'm an un-swell hooligan who paternalistically thinks this is a load of mumakcrap. Phooey!

So, as far as I am concerned, there are only reasons For such a service. You can't please everyone all the time, so this will please XXX out of YYY. The difference can (I'm so repeatative) delete at their leisure. As it won't hurt anyone, please the XXX and then move on to a new thing that will improve the world and please ZZZ. Hey, next time, we might be in the same group...

Brad Brunet

You are ignoring the point of my post either deliberately or through
lack of understanding. My post had nothing to do with whether or not
players understand that there is a section of the map that they can't
see "off map." Rather my post was how to learn what other players do
with that area unseen by a given player's(alliance's) map(s). What
happens "offmap" is something that has to be learned by expending
effort during a game - call it a surprise or secret, but more than
one army has run into two armies where they had recon'd one small
army the turn before or hadn't recon'd at all (you can substitute
fortified pop center for armies if you would like). Why would giving
players this information at the end of the game be a good thing?

To reiterate I didn't ignore the assumption that players know that
off map hexes exist, rather, that during a game they have to expend
orders to obtain information about what is going on in those hexes.
This proposed "disservice" would give information that they don't
currently have which would allow players with some reasoning ability
to "guess" what will be done in those hexes.

Let's try a different approach to this thread. Why do you (this
applies to Brad or anyone else) think this is something that you
should be provided? Please don't restate that you think it is a
service (I'll even grant you that this would be a service whether or
not your grant that it also could be a disservice). Please don't say
because you think so (ok, do that if that's your only argument)

Kevin

I can assure you, I am the amazed one here..

I'll restate something I've said in another way numerous times

already.

Off Map is off map. It is not a surprise, it is not a secret, it

is not "a strategy" perse. If you think that the other players in
the game do not know those hexes exist, do not look there, do not
EXPECT something from someone from "off map", then I can only say:
Let this thread be the education you need.

You've provided me with a specific example, but you've ignored the

above assumption. I can tell you that I've eliminated the
Easterlings on 2 seperate occasions as Rhudar, militarily from off
map pops. Once from North East of him, another time from South West
of him. War stories at the pub. It has nothing to do with the fact
that off-map is off-map and it is NOT a secret.

Keep to the argument: Convince me that "off map" is a secret.

Then get into how losing control of this secret is a disservice.

Brad Brunet

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···

Kevin Brown <mornhm@soltec.net> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet wrote:

#84

Boy, have our experiences differed. :sunglasses: (And the two times you took
out the Khand, are you saying that the Khand player knew about these
pop centers/armies and didn't/couldn't do anything about it?)

I concur with your reasons for having a map. I also enjoy history and
studying battle maps (American Civi War - small battles - is my
favorite venue). And I (already) agree that this would be a service.

On the disservice side: I'm not sure why you don't think that having
information about a "commander's" past actions would be able to be
used against ("hurt") that commander in the future. Studying past
battle strategies is required learning in every military strategy
school of which I am aware. Do you think this because it improves the
students enjoyment of past battles, or because the students are
expected to learn from these past battles? Now suppose in addition to
knowing what a commander did before, they get the option of going
back and fighting the same battle again armed with knowledge of their
enemies strategy (gee I think Hollywood has made movies like this).

This is what MEPBM is about anyway, refighting the same battle over
and over. Better yet, let's let an alliance, wait until their
neighbors have committed themselves to a strategy, quit, and then get
a "historic" view of what the other team's strategy was and use this
against them in the next game (I'm sorry battle). I'm not suggesting
that any particular person would do this, just that actions like this
would turn this service into a disservice.

Kevin

I can simply disagree with that and say "Not in my experience are

players that dense."

Reasons for? It would improve my enjoyment of the game. I like to

read history, this is the same thing, excepting it's a piece of
fictional history of ME. Books with nicer fonts, better paper, more-
useful-attractive illustrations are more popular than simple text.
Same reason the company bothered to make your turn map colour instead
of the old fashioned black and white. Improve the service. They
send a text file of game end info that was originally developed,
heck, decades ago now you could say in a stretch. This hasn't been
added to or improved upon at all ever (that I'm aware). This is all
I see it as. I didn't propose it to Clint, I didn't start this idea
on the board (Clint did). But I love it, have always loved maps (not
older cars...). As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, why not?

"They would use it to hurt me in the future."

Well, I don't buy it at all. I'm an un-swell hooligan who

paternalistically thinks this is a load of mumakcrap. Phooey!

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@r...> wrote:

#85

No, the key is, ask your opponents for their data; don't rely upon a game moderator to give out information on other players.

Don't try to twist my words. I could have used any number of synonyms of "feel" that would have been better perhaps, let's say "think" or "believe".
a) These feelings or beliefs do not come from fear or perceived threat. They come from a reasonable expectation that they can implement stratagms that will not be made public, that can only be discovered in the course of play (nice phrase, that <g>).
b) Why are you entitled to see anything about my position after-the-fact that you didn't or couldn't find out within the game? What specifically gives you that right?

Off-topic: How does the Socialist Party poll in your area of the world?

Well, I said I would shut up last time, and I'd like to this time, but I do need to point out mischaracterizations regarding my posts.

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:
Appreciate the eloquent reply. The key is:

"if some of his customers feel..." key word being "feel".

These feelings appear derived from a perceived threat. That threat is interpreted as agression towards those who feel this way (you use the word "betrayal"). Someone is going to do something to hurt you. You feel it.

My arguments have attempted to shed some light on the source of these feelings. The only source that has been communicated to me, has something to do with personal strategy or gaming style.

My arguments have attempted to educate those who feel this way that there is no threat, there is no agression, and nothing could come of this to hurt you or anyone else. Your gaming style and strategies are A) under no threat and B) neither unique nor special nor secret.

So, instead of being intractable and paternalistic, etc, I'll agree with your own statement, "[I] don't buy into it." I will rarely, if ever, buy into anything that is derived from feelings of insecurity and fear, converted into philisophical dogma (libertarianism...???) and simply repeated ad nauseum in order to overwhelm reasonable and rational discourse.

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

There's nothing personal here Brad, you're probably a swell guy. (You used to have a "spectacular aura" about you even. ) You and I have the same facts, and come to different "logical" conclusions. I have stated my point, not repeatedly like you are wont to do, but nevertheless. My position is not horsecrap. I suppose I will try one last time, then I will shut up, even if I fail to get through to you!

Let me try a little different tack here. Forget about the technical legalities of whose information it is, I don't disagree with you there; let's talk customer service instead. Clint's customers employ his services to create and implement stratagems within a game environment. If some of his customers feel that releasing any data or information on their positions or style of play is to their detriment, they will view any releasing of their position's data against their will as a betrayal -- Clint (player) said himself he wasn't too keen on the idea. Perhaps it would compromise someone's playing style or future success, perhaps not. You don't have to buy into that; it's not really the point. You are of the opinion (correct me if I mischaracterize) that no one who plays the game is entitled to protect any information about their position, that it is "owned" by the company therefore fair game for dissemination after the game is over. I vehemently disagree; if you can't or didn't
figure something out about my position within the context of the game mechanics, then the game company should *not* be in the business of telling you anything about my position after-the-fact. If you ask me for it and I give it to you, it is a free exchange of information. If a player in the game writes up a summary, that is his right as a player; it's not something the game company itself out to be in the business of doing! Either the nuance is lost on you, or you and I have such radically different world-views that we will never be able to reconcile our differences of opinion. Basically, my argument is libertarian, your argument paternalistic.

Now, call all that horsecrap if you want, or call me a name, I really don't care. I *will* shut up now; I think Clint realizes now that deviating from the status quo on this issue is a can of worms. Bottom line: if you want an end-of-game map, ASK YOUR OPPONENTS TO SHARE THEIR DATA. Down with paternalism, up with a free market of ideas!

Drew

Brad Brunet wrote:
Then your experience is limited. I've changed my opinions before, publically on this list.

You say "logic" and then simply decree that the gamemaster shouldn't do something. No logic, no reasoning, more like preaching or commanding to me. Sorry, that won't do. If this is a personal thing with you, feel free to make it private between us, I'm keeping to the discussion here.

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun wrote:

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

Brad Brunet wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

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#86

My point was not to say it was not wise to study a
commanders habits, just that in order to have enough
information on the 100 or so ME players, the amount of
time spent gathering and sorting such info is immense.
And just because Mike is playing, doesn't mean I know
what Mike will do. Is he a mage nation in Harad? A
naval nation? Did he start with cav and WMs, or MA and
a navy? Just too many variables to make it, in my
opinion, a realistic enterprise. Even real world
scenarios have some general assumptions, there aren't
many you can make here, in FA at least.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue because I generally
agree with you, just clarifying.

JB

···

--- Kevin Brown <mornhm@soltec.net> wrote:

Boy, have our experiences differed. :sunglasses: (And the two
times you took
out the Khand, are you saying that the Khand player
knew about these
pop centers/armies and didn't/couldn't do anything
about it?)

I concur with your reasons for having a map. I also
enjoy history and
studying battle maps (American Civi War - small
battles - is my
favorite venue). And I (already) agree that this
would be a service.

On the disservice side: I'm not sure why you don't
think that having
information about a "commander's" past actions would
be able to be
used against ("hurt") that commander in the future.
Studying past
battle strategies is required learning in every
military strategy
school of which I am aware. Do you think this
because it improves the
students enjoyment of past battles, or because the
students are
expected to learn from these past battles? Now
suppose in addition to
knowing what a commander did before, they get the
option of going
back and fighting the same battle again armed with
knowledge of their
enemies strategy (gee I think Hollywood has made
movies like this).

This is what MEPBM is about anyway, refighting the
same battle over
and over. Better yet, let's let an alliance, wait
until their
neighbors have committed themselves to a strategy,
quit, and then get
a "historic" view of what the other team's strategy
was and use this
against them in the next game (I'm sorry battle).
I'm not suggesting
that any particular person would do this, just that
actions like this
would turn this service into a disservice.

Kevin

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet
<bbrunec296@r...> wrote:
> I can simply disagree with that and say "Not in
my experience are
players that dense."
>
> Reasons for? It would improve my enjoyment of the
game. I like to
read history, this is the same thing, excepting it's
a piece of
fictional history of ME. Books with nicer fonts,
better paper, more-
useful-attractive illustrations are more popular
than simple text.
Same reason the company bothered to make your turn
map colour instead
of the old fashioned black and white. Improve the
service. They
send a text file of game end info that was
originally developed,
heck, decades ago now you could say in a stretch.
This hasn't been
added to or improved upon at all ever (that I'm
aware). This is all
I see it as. I didn't propose it to Clint, I didn't
start this idea
on the board (Clint did). But I love it, have
always loved maps (not
older cars...). As long as it doesn't hurt anyone,
why not?
>
> "They would use it to hurt me in the future."
>
> Well, I don't buy it at all. I'm an un-swell
hooligan who
paternalistically thinks this is a load of
mumakcrap. Phooey!

=====
john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

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#87

No, the Easterlings (1650) didn't know about these pops. He likely had better things to do, like fight a war of men instead of a possible war of ghosts, as most of us do. Who would have expected Rhudaur from where I came?

I guarantee you that no matter how many times I post things here, no matter how many articles I publish in Bree with Rhudaur as a title, no matter how many games I play with them with you either on my team or against me, no matter how many ravings I rant on here or on the pbmforum, no matter how many End Game Palantir Maps you can summon from the depths of history or the future, in any game with me as either a neutral or the other side, you will not know where I am or what I am doing. You will know that I am somewhere and doing something. Read and review and surmise to your hearts content, you will waste your time. If my mere presence motivates you to not be "lazy" and spend extra attention to those areas of your game that have been lacking, then to your teammates, I offer a heart-felt "Your welcome!" Find me and burn me out. Good for you! It's not the End Game map that got you going though.

For the record, if people actually spend time doing this, then there are even MORE beneficial results (Services) for the whole gaming community:

1) intractable traditionalists who do the same things over and over again and refuse to learn will be eliminated from play faster, hopefully the game as a whole faster. Net benefit to the rest of us.

2) some of the above and/or just other lazy people will be motivated to think creatively, vary their actions, try new things, etc. Net benefit to the rest of us.

I'm more and more convinced every email: Bring on the Map!

Brad Brunet

Boy, have our experiences differed. :sunglasses: (And the two times you took
out the Khand, are you saying that the Khand player knew about these
pop centers/armies and didn't/couldn't do anything about it?)

I concur with your reasons for having a map. I also enjoy history and
studying battle maps (American Civi War - small battles - is my
favorite venue). And I (already) agree that this would be a service.

On the disservice side: I'm not sure why you don't think that having
information about a "commander's" past actions would be able to be
used against ("hurt") that commander in the future. Studying past
battle strategies is required learning in every military strategy
school of which I am aware. Do you think this because it improves the
students enjoyment of past battles, or because the students are
expected to learn from these past battles? Now suppose in addition to
knowing what a commander did before, they get the option of going
back and fighting the same battle again armed with knowledge of their
enemies strategy (gee I think Hollywood has made movies like this).

This is what MEPBM is about anyway, refighting the same battle over
and over. Better yet, let's let an alliance, wait until their
neighbors have committed themselves to a strategy, quit, and then get
a "historic" view of what the other team's strategy was and use this
against them in the next game (I'm sorry battle). I'm not suggesting
that any particular person would do this, just that actions like this
would turn this service into a disservice.

Kevin

I can simply disagree with that and say "Not in my experience are

players that dense."

Reasons for? It would improve my enjoyment of the game. I like to

read history, this is the same thing, excepting it's a piece of
fictional history of ME. Books with nicer fonts, better paper, more-
useful-attractive illustrations are more popular than simple text.
Same reason the company bothered to make your turn map colour instead
of the old fashioned black and white. Improve the service. They
send a text file of game end info that was originally developed,
heck, decades ago now you could say in a stretch. This hasn't been
added to or improved upon at all ever (that I'm aware). This is all
I see it as. I didn't propose it to Clint, I didn't start this idea
on the board (Clint did). But I love it, have always loved maps (not
older cars...). As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, why not?

"They would use it to hurt me in the future."

Well, I don't buy it at all. I'm an un-swell hooligan who

paternalistically thinks this is a load of mumakcrap. Phooey!

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···

Kevin Brown <mornhm@soltec.net> wrote:
--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet wrote:

#88

Perhaps I missed it in the flurry of messages. There is another reason why there should be NO end game palantir world map. It is called "The nose of the camel". Once the camel gets his nose in the tent, the rest of his body soon follows.

This will serve as a precident for further expansion of th end game report. After all, we already supply everyone with pops and armies via the end game palantir map.
Ed Mills

#89

See, Ed makes a good argument, and he doesn't waste words insinuating I'm a lazy, patronizing socialist (well, I'm neither lazy nor a socialist at least...). He even makes my argument for me: the map is the nose of the camel, totally harmless and irrelevant. So everyone get's to be right! [pat pat]. What a good day, thanks everyone. Back to killing Clint in game 80...

Brad the Freep

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] ] Idea for end of game

Perhaps I missed it in the flurry of messages. There is another reason why
there should be NO end game palantir world map. It is called "The nose of
the camel". Once the camel gets his nose in the tent, the rest of his body
soon follows.

This will serve as a precident for further expansion of th end game report.
After all, we already supply everyone with pops and armies via the end game
palantir map.
Ed Mills

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

#90

He even makes my argument for me: the map is the nose of the
camel, totally harmless and irrelevant.

Erm. Have you ever been near the nose of a camel?

Not only does their breath REALLY smell, they have a nasty habit of
biting anything that goes near their nose.

A bit like Ed really :stuck_out_tongue:

Colin

#91

Colin, you may have my teeth impressions on your posterior, but you have never smelled my breath. An eye watering experience awaits you.
Ed

···

From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
Reply-To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: ] Idea for end of game
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:45:35 -0000

> He even makes my argument for me: the map is the nose of the
> camel, totally harmless and irrelevant.

Erm. Have you ever been near the nose of a camel?

Not only does their breath REALLY smell, they have a nasty habit of
biting anything that goes near their nose.

A bit like Ed really :stuck_out_tongue:

Colin

#92

We agree on two counts there Brad, Ed made a good agrument, and he didn't mince words. Just be glad I didn't invoke my worst curse at you: May your armpits be infested by the fleas of a thousand camels!

Drew

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:
See, Ed makes a good argument, and he doesn't waste words insinuating I'm a
lazy, patronizing socialist (well, I'm neither lazy nor a socialist at
least...). He even makes my argument for me: the map is the nose of the
camel, totally harmless and irrelevant. So everyone get's to be right!
[pat pat]. What a good day, thanks everyone. Back to killing Clint in game
80...

Brad the Freep

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ovatha Easterling" <ovatha88@hotmail.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] ] Idea for end of game

Perhaps I missed it in the flurry of messages. There is another reason why
there should be NO end game palantir world map. It is called "The nose of
the camel". Once the camel gets his nose in the tent, the rest of his body
soon follows.

This will serve as a precident for further expansion of th end game report.
After all, we already supply everyone with pops and armies via the end game
palantir map.
Ed Mills

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#93

Erm. Have you ever been near the nose of a camel?

Not only does their breath REALLY smell, they have a nasty habit of
biting anything that goes near their nose.

Or spitting, which is almost as bad. You might punch the camel on the nose,
but you won't knock it out unless you're name is Conan the Barbarian :slight_smile:

Richard.

A bit like Ed really :stuck_out_tongue:

Colin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: ] Idea for end of game

He even makes my argument for me: the map is the nose of the
camel, totally harmless and irrelevant.