Idea for end of game

mepbmlist
#61

No, sometimes it's worse! :slight_smile:

JCC

···

--- Mele <necron99@charter.net> wrote:

Do these debates generally degrade to using phrases
like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"

Jason Mele
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map

  drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

  Brad, you've been given all the reason in the
world you need, you
  just refuse to accept it.

  BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1)
I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2)
it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses,
thus dumbing the game down.

  Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter
how many times it's repeated, or how many people
chant it, it's still horsecrap. The facts are: 1)
it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who is
what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or
composition, it's so virtually as to BE impossible
for anyone to go over the maps for so many games so
often coincidentally against the same people playing
the same nations and doing the exact same things
(guys, off map is off map...there are no secrets...)
that this entire argument of giving things away is
quite funny actually.

  For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they
should be very thankful that Clint has chosen to
politicize the running of his business to such an
extent that this "public outcry" will kill what is
an excellent augmentation to the service they're
providing. Any other company would have simply put
this most excellent idea into action and provided it
starting immediately as a service enhancement (that
the vast majority, always silent) would more likely
than not either appreciate or simply ignore, at
their leisure.

  Brad Brunet

  [Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

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#62

Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people. Now if we only had an icon that
depicted a person banging his fist on a table or better yet a judge
icon with a gavel pronouncing "the will of the people" we could move
on.

IMO of course :slight_smile:

I cant imagine they do...this must be an anomaly.

William

> Do these debates generally degrade to using phrases
like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"
>
> Jason Mele
> From: Brad Brunet
> To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map
>
>
>
>
> drukarzun <drukarzun@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need,

you

> just refuse to accept it.
>
>
>
> BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for

the

game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic
genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.
>
>
>
> Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times
it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.
The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who

is

what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or composition, it's so
virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go over the maps for so
many games so often coincidentally against the same people playing
the same nations and doing the exact same things (guys, off map is
off map...there are no secrets...) that this entire argument of
giving things away is quite funny actually.
>
>
>
> For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should be very
thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of his
business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill what
is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing. Any
other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into
action and provided it starting immediately as a service

enhancement

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "auburnted" <auburnted@y...> wrote:

-- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mele" <necron99@c...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
(that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not
either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.
>
>
>
> Brad Brunet

#63

If any of you remember Khrushchev banging his shoe on
the table at the U.N. you have the perfect icon image.
LOL

JCC

···

--- Torvanus <torvanus@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sure they do. It happens when intractable people
decide their
opinions are the will of the people. Now if we only
had an icon that
depicted a person banging his fist on a table or
better yet a judge
icon with a gavel pronouncing "the will of the
people" we could move
on.

IMO of course :slight_smile:

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "auburnted"
<auburnted@y...> wrote:
>
> I cant imagine they do...this must be an anomaly.
>
>
> William
>
>
> -- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mele"
<necron99@c...> wrote:
> > Do these debates generally degrade to using
phrases
> like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"
> >
> > Jason Mele
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brad Brunet
> > To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > drukarzun <drukarzun@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Brad, you've been given all the reason in the
world you need,
you
> > just refuse to accept it.
> >
> >
> >
> > BB - The only reasons I've been given have
been 1) I paid for
the
> game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will
reveal my strategic
> genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No
matter how many times
> it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's
still horsecrap.
> The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2)
nobody will know who
is
> what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or
composition, it's so
> virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go
over the maps for so
> many games so often coincidentally against the
same people playing
> the same nations and doing the exact same things
(guys, off map is
> off map...there are no secrets...) that this
entire argument of
> giving things away is quite funny actually.
> >
> >
> >
> > For all of the horsecrap lovers out there,
they should be very
> thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the
running of his
> business to such an extent that this "public
outcry" will kill what
> is an excellent augmentation to the service
they're providing. Any
> other company would have simply put this most
excellent idea into
> action and provided it starting immediately as a
service
enhancement
> (that the vast majority, always silent) would more
likely than not
> either appreciate or simply ignore, at their
leisure.
> >
> >
> >
> > Brad Brunet
>

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#64

Mayhaps a new abreviation is in order (especially for those that
don't receive graphics).

twotp "the will of the people"

As in: twotp is that not all of us like the idea that the maps would
be published at the end of a game.

maybe it should be twotpit "the will of the people is that"

:sunglasses:

Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people. Now if we only had an icon

that

depicted a person banging his fist on a table or better yet a judge
icon with a gavel pronouncing "the will of the people" we could

move

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, "Torvanus" <torvanus@y...> wrote:

on.

IMO of course :slight_smile:

#65

Torvanus wrote:

"Sure they do. It's when intractable people decide their opinion are the will of the people."

Nice slander. I have an opinion about someone else's idea that another person entirely (Clint) asked opinions about. The company was asking if we would like them to provide something extra. Either this extra is either a service improvement, no change (thus, waste of companies time) or would affect a degradation of service.

I am of the opinion that this would improve service. I know for a FACT that it would improve the service to myself, and Mike Mulka, amongst others. I haven't heard any arguments amongst all the other opinions, that this would somehow reduce the quality of service overall.

I haven't read anyone complaining about attachment size, for example (after it was revealed it was simply the gif, not the whole Palantir data file...).

I haven't read anyone complaining that it would take longer, cost more, increase the time it takes to play or get responses from the company. Nobody can claim that turns will be lost or input errors will rise, for example.

I HAVE read some opinions about "dumbing down" the game.
I have also read some claims about rights of ownership.

How it it possible to dumb down this game with a simple end game picture. Nobody has given a clear reason how this can be so. I HAVE read many intractable people who simply believe it to be so. What exactly about a game end map? No responses to my many requests for specifics. "My strategy", etc. All thoroughly reduced to non-starters by simple obvious considerations (ie, off map is off map, so there are no "hidden" surprise pop locations, etc). Convince me. I've changed Opinions in the past, and will continue to do so throughout my life, as a result of reasonable arguments.

And, as has been quite solidly pointed out, the Company owns the game, the program, the information, etc. We pay for the service and as part of that service they provide me with a couple attachments ever turn that's processed. They also provide numerous other "services", that come and go and get changed, added to, etc. But that's it. Out with the ownership of information argument then.

I simply see this game end map as yet another excellent service addition. I haven't seen any (and I've asked) reasonable arguments (with examples to help convince myself and others) that this is anything else. I've been told "if you can't see what I see, then you're just stupid". I've read people say "I know that I'm right". And when I present my opinions in a logical and reasonable way, people have responded with the typical attacks, insults, and slander. If anyone's truly offended by the word horsecrap, well, what can we do. In my opinion that the word "rubbish" is actually more patronizing, but c'est la vie, n'est ce que pas?

I have yet to read an argument against the company doing something extra to give players something extra that can withstand any scutiny. Test the argument and the arguers get intractable. They have no argument, they have no specifics, so they complain about really mild language and call me names.

So to clarify for anyone else who's bored and wants to call me names instead of convincing me:

I'm of the Opinion that this would be an excellent service.
I'm of the Opinion that the majority of the paying customers would appreciate and enjoy it.
I'm of the Opinion that there is a logic deficit in the arguments against this service.
I'm of the Opinion that the company wouldn't lose any money by providing this service.
I'm of the Opinion that it's not going to happen.

Brad Brunet

···

Torvanus <torvanus@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#66

I would describe it more as the "tyranny of the minority"....

Gavin

Torvanus wrote:

···

Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people. Now if we only had an icon that
depicted a person banging his fist on a table or better yet a judge
icon with a gavel pronouncing "the will of the people" we could move
on.

IMO of course :slight_smile:

#67

Disconcerting as this may be, I find myself in total agreement with Brad...
Spooky...

Gavin

Brad Brunet wrote:

···

Torvanus wrote:

"Sure they do. It's when intractable people decide their opinion are the will
of the people."

Nice slander. I have an opinion about someone else's idea that another person
entirely (Clint) asked opinions about. The company was asking if we would
like them to provide something extra. Either this extra is either a service
improvement, no change (thus, waste of companies time) or would affect a
degradation of service.

I am of the opinion that this would improve service. I know for a FACT that
it would improve the service to myself, and Mike Mulka, amongst others. I
haven't heard any arguments amongst all the other opinions, that this would
somehow reduce the quality of service overall.

I haven't read anyone complaining about attachment size, for example (after it
was revealed it was simply the gif, not the whole Palantir data file...).

I haven't read anyone complaining that it would take longer, cost more,
increase the time it takes to play or get responses from the company. Nobody
can claim that turns will be lost or input errors will rise, for example.

I HAVE read some opinions about "dumbing down" the game.
I have also read some claims about rights of ownership.

How it it possible to dumb down this game with a simple end game picture.
Nobody has given a clear reason how this can be so. I HAVE read many
intractable people who simply believe it to be so. What exactly about a game
end map? No responses to my many requests for specifics. "My strategy", etc.
All thoroughly reduced to non-starters by simple obvious considerations (ie,
off map is off map, so there are no "hidden" surprise pop locations, etc).
Convince me. I've changed Opinions in the past, and will continue to do so
throughout my life, as a result of reasonable arguments.

And, as has been quite solidly pointed out, the Company owns the game, the
program, the information, etc. We pay for the service and as part of that
service they provide me with a couple attachments ever turn that's processed.
They also provide numerous other "services", that come and go and get changed,
added to, etc. But that's it. Out with the ownership of information argument
then.

I simply see this game end map as yet another excellent service addition. I
haven't seen any (and I've asked) reasonable arguments (with examples to help
convince myself and others) that this is anything else. I've been told "if you
can't see what I see, then you're just stupid". I've read people say "I know
that I'm right". And when I present my opinions in a logical and reasonable
way, people have responded with the typical attacks, insults, and slander. If
anyone's truly offended by the word horsecrap, well, what can we do. In my
opinion that the word "rubbish" is actually more patronizing, but c'est la
vie, n'est ce que pas?

I have yet to read an argument against the company doing something extra to
give players something extra that can withstand any scutiny. Test the
argument and the arguers get intractable. They have no argument, they have no
specifics, so they complain about really mild language and call me names.

So to clarify for anyone else who's bored and wants to call me names instead
of convincing me:

I'm of the Opinion that this would be an excellent service.
I'm of the Opinion that the majority of the paying customers would appreciate
and enjoy it.
I'm of the Opinion that there is a logic deficit in the arguments against this
service.
I'm of the Opinion that the company wouldn't lose any money by providing this
service.
I'm of the Opinion that it's not going to happen.

Brad Brunet

Torvanus <torvanus@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#68

A whole bunch in which (I think) the essential request was to present
an argument/explanation for why an end of the game map would be
undesirable.

Definition of disservice: an act intended to help that turns out
badly (worldreference.com)

Definition of service: work done by one person or group that benefits
another (worldreference.com)

Same thing can be a service to one person and at the same time (for
the same reason) a disservice to another.

Brad, the argument has been stated several different ways that this
would offer an advantage to those who chose to use it and thus is a
disservice to those that advantage is used against (and perhaps a
disservice to those who chose to use it "dumbing the game down.") The
advantage is that it would show where previously unknown pop centers
are placed. It's pretty easy to deduce who's pop center are whose
under certain circumstances. And for that reason, I think that while
it would be an additional service, it would not be a good service to
offer.

In way of further explanation, let me give you a "for instance" with
me as an example. I like playing the neutral nations in 2950, in
fact, my favorite nation to play is the Corsairs. A good chunk of
real estate that is usually considered to be the Corsairs territory
is on no one else's map. There are ways to develop this real estate
to advantage. Most of this development occurs in the early part of
the game, I have my own particular preferences on how this
development occurs, I don't want to have to vary my game play because
my population/military layout is going to be published at the end of
a game.

Worst case scenario IMHO: Camp limit is reached; Corsairs nation is
completely developed and easily in first place (probably at the top
as far as pop centers and army strength is concerned); Corsairs
haven't declared either way; Corsairs move armies into "seen"
territory; next turn doesn't run because one side drops out ending
the game; map is published showing Corsairs army/navy/pop center
locations in a fully developed state. This has happened to me in
exactly the manner described (except for the map being published
part). I think that even publishing only the map would give a lot of
insight into my strategy as a Corsair player and because of that is a
disservice to me.

Why should someone have access to this "snapshot in time" information
just because the game ends? Because it would be "neat?" Because it
would provide a strategic advantage? Perhaps I missed where you
offered an explanation as to why this service should be offered (yes
you stated your opinion that it was an enhanced service), but you
are "demanding" an explanation from those of us who take the opposing
view. Take this another step: provide the entire palantir file of
finished games or a website with all of the pdfs for completed games?
I can understand how this would be an additional "service" to
players, I'm amazed you can't see why it would be a disservice to
others.

It would be also be an additional service if as a neutral, I was sent
a map of the entire "world" every turn to help me plan my strategy
and see what other nations are doing. However, this would be a
disservice to the other players because it would offer me an
additional advantage. Personally, I would consider that a disservice
to me because it would make the game less of a challenge.

Kevin

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@r...> wrote:

#69

AMEN!

I'm guessing that Clint and Co doesn't make a living out of the 15-20
people we see posting in this list. As with any much discussed issue
(read overstressed-overanalyzed-over hyped- over&#8230;whatever; usually by
the same people over and over again) the 'silent majority' goes on
"either appreciating or simply ignoring, at their leisure".

After all this is a paid service, I would assume that the moment
someone isn't pleased with it, he-she would simply stop paying (thus
making a statement 'The Company' wouldn't miss).

Symeon

...SNIP ... For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should

be very thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of
his business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill
what is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing.
Any other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into
action and provided it starting immediately as a service enhancement
(that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not
either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.

···

Brad Brunet

#70

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#71

well..........this game has been played a very long time....i doubt
there are to many new strategies left..

I'd not say that having played a fair bit now I keep thinking of new stuff to try out.

...and if you are predictable then you deserve to get a whooping eventually.....

Yep my take... and you can play to that often.
Clint (player)

···

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#72

ROFL!! Slander? No it's not slander, it is horsecrap. <g> Those who live in glass houses shouldn't be tossing stones...

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:
Torvanus wrote:

"Sure they do. It's when intractable people decide their opinion are the will of the people."

Nice slander. I have an opinion about someone else's idea that another person entirely (Clint) asked opinions about. The company was asking if we would like them to provide something extra. Either this extra is either a service improvement, no change (thus, waste of companies time) or would affect a degradation of service.

I am of the opinion that this would improve service. I know for a FACT that it would improve the service to myself, and Mike Mulka, amongst others. I haven't heard any arguments amongst all the other opinions, that this would somehow reduce the quality of service overall.

I haven't read anyone complaining about attachment size, for example (after it was revealed it was simply the gif, not the whole Palantir data file...).

I haven't read anyone complaining that it would take longer, cost more, increase the time it takes to play or get responses from the company. Nobody can claim that turns will be lost or input errors will rise, for example.

I HAVE read some opinions about "dumbing down" the game.
I have also read some claims about rights of ownership.

How it it possible to dumb down this game with a simple end game picture. Nobody has given a clear reason how this can be so. I HAVE read many intractable people who simply believe it to be so. What exactly about a game end map? No responses to my many requests for specifics. "My strategy", etc. All thoroughly reduced to non-starters by simple obvious considerations (ie, off map is off map, so there are no "hidden" surprise pop locations, etc). Convince me. I've changed Opinions in the past, and will continue to do so throughout my life, as a result of reasonable arguments.

And, as has been quite solidly pointed out, the Company owns the game, the program, the information, etc. We pay for the service and as part of that service they provide me with a couple attachments ever turn that's processed. They also provide numerous other "services", that come and go and get changed, added to, etc. But that's it. Out with the ownership of information argument then.

I simply see this game end map as yet another excellent service addition. I haven't seen any (and I've asked) reasonable arguments (with examples to help convince myself and others) that this is anything else. I've been told "if you can't see what I see, then you're just stupid". I've read people say "I know that I'm right". And when I present my opinions in a logical and reasonable way, people have responded with the typical attacks, insults, and slander. If anyone's truly offended by the word horsecrap, well, what can we do. In my opinion that the word "rubbish" is actually more patronizing, but c'est la vie, n'est ce que pas?

I have yet to read an argument against the company doing something extra to give players something extra that can withstand any scutiny. Test the argument and the arguers get intractable. They have no argument, they have no specifics, so they complain about really mild language and call me names.

So to clarify for anyone else who's bored and wants to call me names instead of convincing me:

I'm of the Opinion that this would be an excellent service.
I'm of the Opinion that the majority of the paying customers would appreciate and enjoy it.
I'm of the Opinion that there is a logic deficit in the arguments against this service.
I'm of the Opinion that the company wouldn't lose any money by providing this service.
I'm of the Opinion that it's not going to happen.

Brad Brunet

Torvanus <torvanus@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Sure they do. It happens when intractable people decide their
opinions are the will of the people."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

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#73

RD: Why make extra work for yourself and your staff?

Generally to improve the service for you guys, ie to improve the game. Better game = more money for us. (Note I'm NOT saying this would make a better game but your fun = our money in hard financial terms).

And if a single player out of a possible 25 can veto the use of this
facility, it ain't gonna get used very often, is it?

They'd just not get their information added in that's all and the base information would be used I'd guess.

Clint

···

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#74

I can assure you, I am the amazed one here..

I'll restate something I've said in another way numerous times already.

Off Map is off map. It is not a surprise, it is not a secret, it is not "a strategy" perse. If you think that the other players in the game do not know those hexes exist, do not look there, do not EXPECT something from someone from "off map", then I can only say: Let this thread be the education you need.

You've provided me with a specific example, but you've ignored the above assumption. I can tell you that I've eliminated the Easterlings on 2 seperate occasions as Rhudar, militarily from off map pops. Once from North East of him, another time from South West of him. War stories at the pub. It has nothing to do with the fact that off-map is off-map and it is NOT a secret.

Keep to the argument: Convince me that "off map" is a secret. Then get into how losing control of this secret is a disservice.

Brad Brunet

···

Kevin Brown <mornhm@soltec.net> wrote:

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet wrote:
A whole bunch in which (I think) the essential request was to present
an argument/explanation for why an end of the game map would be
undesirable.

Definition of disservice: an act intended to help that turns out
badly (worldreference.com)

Definition of service: work done by one person or group that benefits
another (worldreference.com)

Same thing can be a service to one person and at the same time (for
the same reason) a disservice to another.

Brad, the argument has been stated several different ways that this
would offer an advantage to those who chose to use it and thus is a
disservice to those that advantage is used against (and perhaps a
disservice to those who chose to use it "dumbing the game down.") The
advantage is that it would show where previously unknown pop centers
are placed. It's pretty easy to deduce who's pop center are whose
under certain circumstances. And for that reason, I think that while
it would be an additional service, it would not be a good service to
offer.

In way of further explanation, let me give you a "for instance" with
me as an example. I like playing the neutral nations in 2950, in
fact, my favorite nation to play is the Corsairs. A good chunk of
real estate that is usually considered to be the Corsairs territory
is on no one else's map. There are ways to develop this real estate
to advantage. Most of this development occurs in the early part of
the game, I have my own particular preferences on how this
development occurs, I don't want to have to vary my game play because
my population/military layout is going to be published at the end of
a game.

Worst case scenario IMHO: Camp limit is reached; Corsairs nation is
completely developed and easily in first place (probably at the top
as far as pop centers and army strength is concerned); Corsairs
haven't declared either way; Corsairs move armies into "seen"
territory; next turn doesn't run because one side drops out ending
the game; map is published showing Corsairs army/navy/pop center
locations in a fully developed state. This has happened to me in
exactly the manner described (except for the map being published
part). I think that even publishing only the map would give a lot of
insight into my strategy as a Corsair player and because of that is a
disservice to me.

Why should someone have access to this "snapshot in time" information
just because the game ends? Because it would be "neat?" Because it
would provide a strategic advantage? Perhaps I missed where you
offered an explanation as to why this service should be offered (yes
you stated your opinion that it was an enhanced service), but you
are "demanding" an explanation from those of us who take the opposing
view. Take this another step: provide the entire palantir file of
finished games or a website with all of the pdfs for completed games?
I can understand how this would be an additional "service" to
players, I'm amazed you can't see why it would be a disservice to
others.

It would be also be an additional service if as a neutral, I was sent
a map of the entire "world" every turn to help me plan my strategy
and see what other nations are doing. However, this would be a
disservice to the other players because it would offer me an
additional advantage. Personally, I would consider that a disservice
to me because it would make the game less of a challenge.

Kevin

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#75

Then your experience is limited. I've changed my opinions before, publically on this list.

You say "logic" and then simply decree that the gamemaster shouldn't do something. No logic, no reasoning, more like preaching or commanding to me. Sorry, that won't do. If this is a personal thing with you, feel free to make it private between us, I'm keeping to the discussion here.

Brad Brunet

···

Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

Brad Brunet wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

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#76

<<Do people really get banned for their opinions? If so, ban me, because I am
full of opinions.>>

* Of course not. But using the game mechanics to try and prove your points to others will sure tick a lot of people off.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Mele
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  Do people really get banned for their opinions? If so, ban me, because I am
  full of opinions.

  And, for the record, a "crazed activist" is to be equated to a suicide
  bomber, or, if you are looking for some local color, a "hooligan," and
  certainly not a MEPBM player.

  No map swap. Down with the map swap. Booooo map swap. Off with the map
  swap's head. I pay $7.60 US for my .xml and .pdf. If someone else is gonna
  pay my turn fee, they are welcome to my information.

  Jason Mele

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Darrell Shimel" <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com>
  To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 3:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  >
  >> I am steadfast in my opposition
  >> to this bad idea, for one overarching reason: you
  >> already have the opportunity to swap files with your
  >> opponents.
  >
  > I want to see maps even for games I wasn't in... Just
  > think it would be interesting...
  >
  > And don't think for a second that steadfast opposition
  > will get you anything but labeled a "crazed activist",
  > and maybe even a temporary ban from the boards.
  >
  >
  >> Why does it seem everyone wants to
  >> continually dumb-down this game?
  >>
  >> Drew
  >>
  >> Darrell Shimel <threeedgedsword35@yahoo.com> wrote:
  >> I disagree. I think it is a great idea. Assuming,
  >> of
  >> course, every nation in the game wants the map
  >> released. One person doesn't want it released, then
  >> it
  >> isn't. Should be ample protection for those that
  >> want
  >> there secrets protected.
  >>
  >>
  >> --- Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:
  >>
  >> > Clint,
  >> >
  >> > I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this
  >> idea.
  >> > Players already have the option of swapping PDFs
  >> > and XMLs with their opposition if they so choose.
  >> > Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games,
  >> > maybe I had a few tricks up my sleeve that I
  >> > wouldn't want the opposition to know about. A
  >> > GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that
  >> needs
  >> > to go away.
  >> >
  >> > Drew Carson
  >> >
  >> > ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
  >> > A player has suggested that we do a Palantir map
  >> for
  >> > the end of a game. I
  >> > can see some pros and cons for this.
  >> >
  >> > Thoughts welcome. Logistically we could do it
  >> when
  >> > we do the game end stuff
  >> > that we do.
  >> >
  >> > Clint
  >> >
  >> >
  >> >
  >> > Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
  >> > To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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  >>
  >>
  >>
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#77

<<Don't we pay for the turns? Don't you sell them to us? Aren't they then
an information commodity? So absolutely, it must be an opt in system. You
don't have the right to resell, or give away something you've already sold
to me. >>

More likely they are just selling you the service of running turns. I'd wager MEGames still has full ownership of your turn results and data and etc. If they wanted to rent a page in the New York Times and publish your turn results on it, they probably could.

On a similar note, chalk my vote in for being AGAINST full map sharing at game end.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Laurence G. Tilley
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Idea for end of game

  At 21:46 09/02/2005, you wrote:
  > >I am categorically, absolutely opposed to this idea. Players already have
  > >the option of swapping PDFs and XMLs with their opposition if they so
  > >choose. Some games, I wouldn't mind sharing; other games, maybe I had a
  > >few tricks up my sleeve that I wouldn't want the opposition to know
  > >about. A GM-created, final palantir map is an idea that needs to go away.
  >
  >As a player I don't like it either. But as it was suggested by a different
  >player I thought that I'd offer it out and get some feedback. I think an
  >opt in or out option might be the best solution here.

  Don't we pay for the turns? Don't you sell them to us? Aren't they then
  an information commodity? So absolutely, it must be an opt in system. You
  don't have the right to resell, or give away something you've already sold
  to me. I certainly wouldn't agree to my final turns being published. So
  there's no crazed activism here, quite a few of us fundamentally opposed to
  the idea.

  []
       Laurence G.Tilley

  http://www.lgtilley.freeserve.co.uk

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#78

Do these debates generally degrade to using phrases like "horsecrap" and "crazed activist?"

  Jason Mele

  ** Hey!! I expect some royalties if you guys keep using that term!

  -Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
    From: Brad Brunet
    To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:47 AM
    Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Re: end game map

    drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Brad, you've been given all the reason in the world you need, you
    just refuse to accept it.

    BB - The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

    Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap. The facts are: 1) it's not your info and 2) nobody will know who is what, an icon doesn't reveal army size or composition, it's so virtually as to BE impossible for anyone to go over the maps for so many games so often coincidentally against the same people playing the same nations and doing the exact same things (guys, off map is off map...there are no secrets...) that this entire argument of giving things away is quite funny actually.

    For all of the horsecrap lovers out there, they should be very thankful that Clint has chosen to politicize the running of his business to such an extent that this "public outcry" will kill what is an excellent augmentation to the service they're providing. Any other company would have simply put this most excellent idea into action and provided it starting immediately as a service enhancement (that the vast majority, always silent) would more likely than not either appreciate or simply ignore, at their leisure.

    Brad Brunet

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#79

There's nothing personal here Brad, you're probably a swell guy. (You used to have a "spectacular aura" about you even. <g>) You and I have the same facts, and come to different "logical" conclusions. I have stated my point, not repeatedly like you are wont to do, but nevertheless. My position is not horsecrap. I suppose I will try one last time, then I will shut up, even if I fail to get through to you! <g>

Let me try a little different tack here. Forget about the technical legalities of whose information it is, I don't disagree with you there; let's talk customer service instead. Clint's customers employ his services to create and implement stratagems within a game environment. If some of his customers feel that releasing any data or information on their positions or style of play is to their detriment, they will view any releasing of their position's data against their will as a betrayal -- Clint (player) said himself he wasn't too keen on the idea. Perhaps it would compromise someone's playing style or future success, perhaps not. You don't have to buy into that; it's not really the point. You are of the opinion (correct me if I mischaracterize) that no one who plays the game is entitled to protect any information about their position, that it is "owned" by the company therefore fair game for dissemination after the game is over. I vehemently disagree; if you can't or didn't
figure something out about my position within the context of the game mechanics, then the game company should *not* be in the business of telling you anything about my position after-the-fact. If you ask me for it and I give it to you, it is a free exchange of information. If a player in the game writes up a summary, that is his right as a player; it's not something the game company itself out to be in the business of doing! Either the nuance is lost on you, or you and I have such radically different world-views that we will never be able to reconcile our differences of opinion. Basically, my argument is libertarian, your argument paternalistic.

Now, call all that horsecrap if you want, or call me a name, I really don't care. I *will* shut up now; I think Clint realizes now that deviating from the status quo on this issue is a can of worms. Bottom line: if you want an end-of-game map, ASK YOUR OPPONENTS TO SHARE THEIR DATA. Down with paternalism, up with a free market of ideas!

Drew

···

Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@rogers.com> wrote:
Then your experience is limited. I've changed my opinions before, publically on this list.

You say "logic" and then simply decree that the gamemaster shouldn't do something. No logic, no reasoning, more like preaching or commanding to me. Sorry, that won't do. If this is a personal thing with you, feel free to make it private between us, I'm keeping to the discussion here.

Brad Brunet

Drukarzun <drukarzun@yahoo.com> wrote:

Brad, in my limited experience with you, everything you don't agree with, you think is horsecrap. Every opinion On The Face Of The Planet is horsecrap, if you don't agree with it. If the obvious logic of the situation doesn't get through to you, I'm finished trying to logically explain it to you (after this one last attempt): if you want a game ending summary, ask your opponents for the data; the game master in no way, shape, or form should be providing it.

Brad Brunet wrote:

The only reasons I've been given have been 1) I paid for the game, don't give "my" info out and 2) it will reveal my strategic genius to the masses, thus dumbing the game down.

Both of those reasons are horsecrap. No matter how many times it's repeated, or how many people chant it, it's still horsecrap.

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#80

You are ignoring the point of my post either deliberately or through
lack of understanding. My post had nothing to do with whether or not
players understand that there is a section of the map that they can't
see "off map." Rather my post was how to learn what other players do
with that area unseen by a given player's(alliance's) map(s). What
happens "offmap" is something that has to be learned by expending
effort during a game - call it a surprise or secret, but more than
one army has run into two armies where they had recon'd one small
army the turn before or hadn't recon'd at all (you can substitute
fortified pop center for armies if you would like). Why would giving
players this information at the end of the game be a good thing?

To reiterate I didn't ignore the assumption that players know that
off map hexes exist, rather, that during a game they have to expend
orders to obtain information about what is going on in those hexes.
This proposed "disservice" would give information that they don't
currently have which would allow players with some reasoning ability
to "guess" what will be done in those hexes.

Let's try a different approach to this thread. Why do you (this
applies to Brad or anyone else) think this is something that you
should be provided? Please don't restate that you think it is a
service (I'll even grant you that this would be a service whether or
not your grant that it also could be a disservice). Please don't say
because you think so (ok, do that if that's your only argument)

Kevin

I can assure you, I am the amazed one here..

I'll restate something I've said in another way numerous times

already.

Off Map is off map. It is not a surprise, it is not a secret, it

is not "a strategy" perse. If you think that the other players in
the game do not know those hexes exist, do not look there, do not
EXPECT something from someone from "off map", then I can only say:
Let this thread be the education you need.

You've provided me with a specific example, but you've ignored the

above assumption. I can tell you that I've eliminated the
Easterlings on 2 seperate occasions as Rhudar, militarily from off
map pops. Once from North East of him, another time from South West
of him. War stories at the pub. It has nothing to do with the fact
that off-map is off-map and it is NOT a secret.

Keep to the argument: Convince me that "off map" is a secret.

Then get into how losing control of this secret is a disservice.

···

--- In mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com, Brad Brunet <bbrunec296@r...> wrote:

Brad Brunet