ME Announcement

mepbmlist
#1

Let us review the recent history of a great American and international business. CocaCola. As blue a blue chip company as exists presently. Twenty some years ago this company brought out the "new and improved Coke". The company polls showed the customers wanted this. It turned out to be a great disaster. Sales dropped like an airborne rock. Pepsi gained market share and almost won the 'cola wars' outright. Tail between their legs, the Coke people ended that product and brought back "Classic" coke. Now some people are unable to resist touching a hot stove twice, so a few months ago Coke brought out "Coke C2", which has proven to be a retail joke.

Is it possible for a businessman to ruin a great product and tradition, endangering his company? Yes.

So, Clint, when you feel the need to 'modernize' the game, the desire to 'tinker', the advisability to extend a new 'service': Keep in mind you are approaching a cliff. Unlike Coke you lack the resources to survive a mis-step.
Ed Mills

···

We're very pleased to announce that we're now the proud owners of the Middle
Earth PBM licence for the entire world, we've just bought GSI. This is
another big step for us, but one that we've been looking to take for a long
time.

What will this mean to you guys? Lots of things, more updates to software
and improvements, but most likely we'll be fixing some minor bugbears and
bringing the game in the 21st Century. We'll be able to do
Face to Face events all over the World (planning the next one in March in
Denmark) and hopefully bring out some new modules. As per usual we won't go
ahead with any changes without full consultation with you guys.

Thanks
Clint

_________________________________________________________________
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#2

"Once upon a time there was a big friendly global giant called Nokia. They
sold more mobile phones than anyone else and were famous for the
desirability and coolness of their phones. A rival giant called brave
prince Sony brought out a new improved phone design - it looked like a clam!

Laughing to themselves about how silly the Sony idea was, the big friendly
giant multinational corporation did not improve their phones design, and
sat happily in their ivory tower, thinking about how good their phones
already were.

They looked pretty silly when the brave prince Sony stole a huge chunk of
their market share."

It appears that the moral of Ed's story is to "Look before you leap".

We'll certainly be careful. Thanks for your words of caution.

Clint

···

Let us review the recent history of a great American and international
business. CocaCola. As blue a blue chip company as exists presently.
Twenty some years ago this company brought out the "new and improved Coke".
The company polls showed the customers wanted this. It turned out to be a
great disaster. Sales dropped like an airborne rock. Pepsi gained market
share and almost won the 'cola wars' outright. Tail between their legs, the
Coke people ended that product and brought back "Classic" coke. Now some
people are unable to resist touching a hot stove twice, so a few months ago
Coke brought out "Coke C2", which has proven to be a retail joke.

Is it possible for a businessman to ruin a great product and tradition,
endangering his company? Yes.

So, Clint, when you feel the need to 'modernize' the game, the desire to
'tinker', the advisability to extend a new 'service': Keep in mind you are
approaching a cliff. Unlike Coke you lack the resources to survive a
mis-step.
Ed Mills
>We're very pleased to announce that we're now the proud owners of the
>Middle
>Earth PBM licence for the entire world, we've just bought GSI. This is
>another big step for us, but one that we've been looking to take for a long
>time.
>
>What will this mean to you guys? Lots of things, more updates to software
>and improvements, but most likely we'll be fixing some minor bugbears and
>bringing the game in the 21st Century. We'll be able to do
>Face to Face events all over the World (planning the next one in March in
>Denmark) and hopefully bring out some new modules. As per usual we won't
>go
>ahead with any changes without full consultation with you guys.
>
>Thanks
>Clint

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                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: PO Box 680155, Marietta, GA 30068-0003
         Tel 770 579 6813 EST Weekdays
         Fax 503 296 2325
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#3

We'll certainly be careful. Thanks for your words of caution.

Clint

RD: Clint, I'm sure you're wise enough not to kill the goose that lays the
golden eggs. Despite the introduction of 2950, 4th Age, WotR, Gunboat,
Bofa, NAK etc., a lot of players still like good old unimproved 1650. I
would therefore expect Harle to run unimproved 1650 games alongside any new
improved version, until one or the other becomes uneconomical.

That said, imho, some changes to the basic game would be good.
1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and unrewarding
compared with army rules.
2) It is crazy that powerful characters who would be spotted anywhere else,
can walk unseen into 'hidden' enemy capitals and surprise-challenge them.
Great fun if you're the challenger (evil chuckle) but totally illogical.
3) Why can't you split army to another army commander?

That's just for starters. I'd like to know, Clint, whether you propose to
fine-tune the game by changing just a few things like the above, or whether
you're going to do a major overhaul, or both.

Richard.

>Let us review the recent history of a great American and international
>business. CocaCola. As blue a blue chip company as exists presently.
>Twenty some years ago this company brought out the "new and improved

Coke".

>The company polls showed the customers wanted this. It turned out to be

a

>great disaster. Sales dropped like an airborne rock. Pepsi gained

market

>share and almost won the 'cola wars' outright. Tail between their legs,

the

>Coke people ended that product and brought back "Classic" coke. Now some
>people are unable to resist touching a hot stove twice, so a few months

ago

>Coke brought out "Coke C2", which has proven to be a retail joke.
>
>Is it possible for a businessman to ruin a great product and tradition,
>endangering his company? Yes.
>
>So, Clint, when you feel the need to 'modernize' the game, the desire to
>'tinker', the advisability to extend a new 'service': Keep in mind you

are

>approaching a cliff. Unlike Coke you lack the resources to survive a
>mis-step.
>Ed Mills
> >We're very pleased to announce that we're now the proud owners of the
> >Middle
> >Earth PBM licence for the entire world, we've just bought GSI. This is
> >another big step for us, but one that we've been looking to take for a

long

> >time.
> >
> >What will this mean to you guys? Lots of things, more updates to

software

> >and improvements, but most likely we'll be fixing some minor bugbears

and

> >bringing the game in the 21st Century. We'll be able to do
> >Face to Face events all over the World (planning the next one in March

in

> >Denmark) and hopefully bring out some new modules. As per usual we

won't

> >go
> >ahead with any changes without full consultation with you guys.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Clint
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools

and

···

>more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
>
>
>
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: PO Box 680155, Marietta, GA 30068-0003
         Tel 770 579 6813 EST Weekdays
         Fax 503 296 2325
****************************************************************
         Middle Earth - Legends
         Serim Ral - Exile

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#4

Hi,
Richard Devereux speaks a good deal of sense regarding possible
changes to the game. (I can't say the same for his politics on the off
topic thread ;-))

RD: 1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and
unrewarding compared with army rules.

Exactly. Naval warfare is my favourite thing about a number of
wargames - but the MPEBM naval rules are woefullly inadequate. This is
not the place to go into alternatives, but a glance at any wargame
involving ships will provide a plethora of ideas.

RD: 2) It is crazy that powerful characters who would be spotted
anywhere else, can walk unseen into 'hidden' enemy capitals and
surprise-challenge them.

At the risk of a "When Harry met Sally" flahsback, yes, yes, yes, YES,
YES!! Why having a hidden pop centre should be such a disadvantage is
beyond me. The hidden status of say, Khazak-dum, should make it harder
for enemy agents to scout, while still giving at least a noirmal
chance for enemies to show up. And please, lets not have Dwarves being
eaten by dragons at their capital - it's *hidden* for goodness sake!

RD: 3) Why can't you split army to another army commander?

Any comment I might make here, other than to agree with Richard, would
make Ed Mills start throwing rocks at me and defending the original
game designers. Well, Pete and Bill were inspired, but things like
this prove they weren't perfect :slight_smile:

Colin

#5

Hi,
Richard Devereux speaks a good deal of sense regarding possible
changes to the game. (I can't say the same for his politics on the off
topic thread ;-))

RD: 1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and
unrewarding compared with army rules.

Exactly. Naval warfare is my favourite thing about a number of
wargames - but the MPEBM naval rules are woefullly inadequate. This is
not the place to go into alternatives, but a glance at any wargame
involving ships will provide a plethora of ideas.

RD: 2) It is crazy that powerful characters who would be spotted
anywhere else, can walk unseen into 'hidden' enemy capitals and
surprise-challenge them.

At the risk of a "When Harry met Sally" flahsback, yes, yes, yes, YES,
YES!! Why having a hidden pop centre should be such a disadvantage is
beyond me. The hidden status of say, Khazak-dum, should make it harder
for enemy agents to scout, while still giving at least a noirmal
chance for enemies to show up.

and please, lets not have Dwarves being eaten by dragons at their

capital - it's *hidden* for goodness sake!
RD: Not only that, but if I order Beawyn to Esgaroth (a fortified town) to
prentice and learn/cast spells I do not expect her to go wandering off into
the wilderness to get eaten by a giant spider. The walls are supposed to
keep enemies - including monsters - at bay. They should also keep wilful
women from wandering off!

Ideally both players and the program should be able to differentiate between
characters -inside- a fortified pop, and those -outside-, but I fear that is
too much to hope for.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Forbes" <colin@timewyrm.co.uk>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] Re: ME Announcement

RD: 3) Why can't you split army to another army commander?

Any comment I might make here, other than to agree with Richard, would
make Ed Mills start throwing rocks at me and defending the original
game designers. Well, Pete and Bill were inspired, but things like
this prove they weren't perfect :slight_smile:

Colin

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#6

Basically our opinion is that we'll create the best game that we can. Best
doesn't always mean more complexity or more realtiy, KISS is something the
we like to stick to (Keep It Simple Stupid).

That said, imho, some changes to the basic game would be good.
1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and unrewarding
compared with army rules.

I don't see they really need a big improvement.

2) It is crazy that powerful characters who would be spotted anywhere else,
can walk unseen into 'hidden' enemy capitals and surprise-challenge them.
Great fun if you're the challenger (evil chuckle) but totally illogical.

I agree.

3) Why can't you split army to another army commander?

355 you can do. Lots of orders have been set up to be specifically hard to
do. For example, making and upgrading weapons has been designed to be
"arse-backwards". Ditto 780 and 765. Making something easier to do won't
necessarily improve the game IMO.

That's just for starters. I'd like to know, Clint, whether you propose to
fine-tune the game by changing just a few things like the above, or whether
you're going to do a major overhaul, or both.

We have no plans as such. We're looking at a new module that should be
interesting but 1650 as it stands (and very likely 2950) I can't see
changing. But that's just my first impressions, we're in this for the
long-haul so there's no rush.

Clint

···

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#7

ME Games Ltd wrote:

We have no plans as such. We're looking at a new module that should
be interesting but 1650 as it stands (and very likely 2950) I can't
see changing. But that's just my first impressions, we're in this
for the long-haul so there's no rush.

My only request is that 1650/2950 as they currently stand always remain an option. You guys can go hog wild (and I hope you do) implementing LGT's 2nd edition rules, new scenarios, or whatever. Just leave the standards as they are.

Looking forward to new, cool stuff!

    jason

···

--
Jason Bennett, jasonab@acm.org
E pur si muove!
Get Firefox! - http://getfirefox.com

#8

Yes that's part of the initial concept. as per usual I'll listen to what
you guys have to say and see what you like.

Hidden PCs: One thought is that it shows up enemy characters there as
normal pcs do. Thoughts?

Clint

···

> We have no plans as such. We're looking at a new module that should
> be interesting but 1650 as it stands (and very likely 2950) I can't
> see changing. But that's just my first impressions, we're in this
> for the long-haul so there's no rush.

My only request is that 1650/2950 as they currently stand always remain
an option. You guys can go hog wild (and I hope you do) implementing
LGT's 2nd edition rules, new scenarios, or whatever. Just leave the
standards as they are.

Looking forward to new, cool stuff!

                jason

--
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E pur si muove!
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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2062 5665 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: PO Box 680155, Marietta, GA 30068-0003
         Tel 770 579 6813 EST Weekdays
         Fax 503 296 2325
****************************************************************
         Middle Earth - Legends
         Serim Ral - Exile

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#9

For example, making and upgrading weapons has been designed to be
"arse-backwards".

** My opinion is it's set up this way to punish those who don't "think ahead" and equip troops when hired. MEPBM definately rewards forethought.

Russ

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ME Games Ltd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] ME Announcement

  Basically our opinion is that we'll create the best game that we can. Best
  doesn't always mean more complexity or more realtiy, KISS is something the
  we like to stick to (Keep It Simple Stupid).

  >That said, imho, some changes to the basic game would be good.
  >1) navy rules are unimaginative, over-complex, expensive and unrewarding
  >compared with army rules.

  I don't see they really need a big improvement.

  >2) It is crazy that powerful characters who would be spotted anywhere else,
  >can walk unseen into 'hidden' enemy capitals and surprise-challenge them.
  >Great fun if you're the challenger (evil chuckle) but totally illogical.

  I agree.

  >3) Why can't you split army to another army commander?

  355 you can do. Lots of orders have been set up to be specifically hard to
  do. For example, making and upgrading weapons has been designed to be
  "arse-backwards". Ditto 780 and 765. Making something easier to do won't
  necessarily improve the game IMO.

  >That's just for starters. I'd like to know, Clint, whether you propose to
  >fine-tune the game by changing just a few things like the above, or whether
  >you're going to do a major overhaul, or both.

  We have no plans as such. We're looking at a new module that should be
  interesting but 1650 as it stands (and very likely 2950) I can't see
  changing. But that's just my first impressions, we're in this for the
  long-haul so there's no rush.

  Clint

    ----------

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#10

But most people hire troops and build the weapons at the same time (except
me in one game where it completely slipped my mind for a turn!), so the
orders as they stand are a bit iffy anyway.

First scenario: Joe Blacksmith says to Joe Commander, you go round up the
troops and I'll have the weapons ready for you when you get back.

Second scenario: Joe Blacksmith looks at the assembled troops that Joe
Commander has just spent two weeks recruiting, purses his lips and says,
it'll take two weeks to make the stuff and then another two to distribute it
all.

It's always fun explaining this to newbies...

As punishments go, it's a biggy.

Gavin

R.K.Floyd wrote:

···

For example, making and upgrading weapons has been designed to be
"arse-backwards".

** My opinion is it's set up this way to punish those who don't "think ahead"
and equip troops when hired. MEPBM definately rewards forethought.

#11

Recruit your army over time, bigger...bigger...bigger. Eventually, it's
ready to go, maybe join up with others en route. Multiple coms, a com/mage
travelling with, etc. Say you're Arthedain or the Easterlings heading to
the other side of the map. Turn before you move ship a gazillion steel
over, Make the turn you move out and Upgrade on the march. The orders are
fine. Similarly, you can't 550 the same turn you 555. Fair for everyone.

Brad

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] ME Announcement

But most people hire troops and build the weapons at the same time (except
me in one game where it completely slipped my mind for a turn!), so the
orders as they stand are a bit iffy anyway.

#12

Yes.

JCC

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

Hidden PCs: One thought is that it shows up enemy
characters there as
normal pcs do. Thoughts?

Clint

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#13

I disagree. I think that a character that enters a hidden PC doesnt actually enter the PC, just the surrounding area. After all, it's HIDDEN. I think that a character that enters a hidden PC should not be able to interact with any characters in such PC unless they are in a army ( since this shows regardless of the hidden status, implying that the army doesn't necessarily stays in the PC for the 14 days ).

    What do u think ? If the PC is hidden, "loose" characters cannot be target of orders from adversary nations, since such doesn't know where they actually are. On the other hand, since the hostile character isn't in the PC, he shouldn't appear in the turnsheet. I think this is both realist and effective. I believe it to be a more just approach to this topic, while maintaining a certain level of reality and logic to it....

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: John Choules
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] ME Announcement

  --- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
  >
  > Hidden PCs: One thought is that it shows up enemy
  > characters there as
  > normal pcs do. Thoughts?
  >
  > Clint

  Yes.

  JCC

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#14

From: Rodrigo Maia [mailto:g0th@bol.com.br]

   What do u think ? If the PC is hidden, "loose" characters cannot be
target of orders from adversary nations, since such doesn't know where

they

actually are. On the other hand, since the hostile character isn't in

the

PC, he shouldn't appear in the turnsheet. I think this is both realist

and

effective. I believe it to be a more just approach to this topic, while
maintaining a certain level of reality and logic to it....

Even "loose" characters go for a walk, have country homes, or need to
pick up some reagents from the forest. I would say that someone in a
hidden PC is immune to any enemy character actions if they specifically
issue a "hide in the city" order.

Mike Mulka

#15

I disagree. Even so, let's agree that characters in a Hidden PC of their nations should be almost impossible to perceive through scouts. After all, if a mage predicts its location, there's little importance if the PC is hidden or not. So, as a compromise, what do u think about a "in a hidden PC u would not find characters of that nation or another FRIENDLY nation with a recon or scout order" rule ? This way, it doesn't impede magical scrying, in fact it heightens its importance. Also it makes double agents easier targets....

    Also, as a way to help diminish the discrepance between FPs and DSs, how about extending the palantir efficiency ? That's something i've always beefed about. Why can't a palantir locate a character ? The order could be switched so that u could specify either an hex or an ID, and the palantir woukd act accordingly. Unless someone names a character "3124 II" , that shouldn't cause comotion =P ..

        Rodrigo Maia

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Urzahil
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 5:19 PM
  Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] ME Announcement

  >From: Rodrigo Maia [mailto:g0th@bol.com.br]
  >
  > What do u think ? If the PC is hidden, "loose" characters cannot be
  >target of orders from adversary nations, since such doesn't know where
  they
  >actually are. On the other hand, since the hostile character isn't in
  the
  >PC, he shouldn't appear in the turnsheet. I think this is both realist
  and
  >effective. I believe it to be a more just approach to this topic, while
  >maintaining a certain level of reality and logic to it....

  Even "loose" characters go for a walk, have country homes, or need to
  pick up some reagents from the forest. I would say that someone in a
  hidden PC is immune to any enemy character actions if they specifically
  issue a "hide in the city" order.

  Mike Mulka

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#16

While you're at it....

1) Hidded pops show enemy chars
2) A hidden pops makes a ScoChar by a non-friendly
agent harder.
3) Hidden pops protect your characters from assassins
the way a non-hidden pop does. (Though don't mention
militia, make it look like a regular failure.)

4) NO pop should stop actions by any charatcer the pop
is friendly with. (I.E. If DrgLrd is friendly toward
CL, then CL agents should be able to assass any
character at a DrgLrd pop without the pop trying to
stop it.)

5) If a char is doubled, then the double should
protect the pops and chars of every nation that the
doubler is friendly toward. (I.E. I should not have to
see reports of the CL agent that I have doubled,
killing characters that I'm friendly towards.) I
think this would help balance the agent game.

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

Yes that's part of the initial concept. as per
usual I'll listen to what
you guys have to say and see what you like.

Hidden PCs: One thought is that it shows up enemy
characters there as
normal pcs do. Thoughts?

Clint

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#17

Spells ....

Hmm, any chance of pruning the existing combat spells (why so many
lists that do the same thing?) and giving us some interesting new
spells to play with? I realise this is a major piece of coding and not
first priority ...

Colin

#18

It does seem that KISS should be applied to "make
weapons". Dump the armor in baggage train. Make
weapon should require you to be at a pop you own (or
is friendly to you) and have the product in stores.

MakWpns troop_type armor_type #_of_units.

This would make the armor and distribute it.
Simplifies things quite a bit, and might actually be
used.

···

--- Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com> wrote:

But most people hire troops and build the weapons at
the same time (except
me in one game where it completely slipped my mind
for a turn!), so the
orders as they stand are a bit iffy anyway.

First scenario: Joe Blacksmith says to Joe
Commander, you go round up the
troops and I'll have the weapons ready for you when
you get back.

Second scenario: Joe Blacksmith looks at the
assembled troops that Joe
Commander has just spent two weeks recruiting,
purses his lips and says,
it'll take two weeks to make the stuff and then
another two to distribute it
all.

It's always fun explaining this to newbies...

As punishments go, it's a biggy.

Gavin

R.K.Floyd wrote:

>
>
> For example, making and upgrading weapons has been
designed to be
> "arse-backwards".
>
>
> ** My opinion is it's set up this way to punish
those who don't "think ahead"
> and equip troops when hired. MEPBM definately
rewards forethought.

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#19

Yes

Clint

···

At 21:30 25/10/04, you wrote:

Spells ....

Hmm, any chance of pruning the existing combat spells (why so many
lists that do the same thing?) and giving us some interesting new
spells to play with? I realise this is a major piece of coding and not
first priority ...

Colin

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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#20

I would say that someone in a

hidden PC is immune to any enemy character actions if they specifically
issue a "hide in the city" order.>>>

** Interesting. You'd almost might as well issue "refuse personal challenge" then as blind PC's are what usually nail people (at least in the early game) in hidden pops. This new order would have the added benefit of protecting from assassinations, though.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Urzahil
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:19 PM
  Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] ME Announcement

  >From: Rodrigo Maia [mailto:g0th@bol.com.br]
  >
  > What do u think ? If the PC is hidden, "loose" characters cannot be
  >target of orders from adversary nations, since such doesn't know where
  they
  >actually are. On the other hand, since the hostile character isn't in
  the
  >PC, he shouldn't appear in the turnsheet. I think this is both realist
  and
  >effective. I believe it to be a more just approach to this topic, while
  >maintaining a certain level of reality and logic to it....

  Even "loose" characters go for a walk, have country homes, or need to
  pick up some reagents from the forest. I would say that someone in a
  hidden PC is immune to any enemy character actions if they specifically
  issue a "hide in the city" order.

  Mike Mulka

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