One Banker nation

[Harlequin_Games1]

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

  This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

  For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[DrakaraGM]

Hey Clint --

I presume that a player that has his nation mostly sit on its gold -- i.e. the team doesn't ship him gold, he just tends to like a high reserve, so he doesn't raise as many troops or spend as much gold as many players, and as a result market prices do tend to be higher but not skyrocketed per se, is still fine?

I have had players like that in some of my games -- and can remember being simultaneously appreciative of the fact that prices are high (when I sell stuff) and annoyed that the player doesn't otherwise seem to be doing as much to support the team overall...

In 4th Age which is what I mostly play it is less of a problem anyway as all nations of all allegiances are pretty balanced at this point, so you don't have the same situation at least at the start where one allegiance has a significantly stronger economy.

Anyway, nice to confirm that a single nation with huge reserves does indeed skew the market. We always thought that was the case, just not sure how much so as opposed to other market forces. Thanks for running these tests!

-- Ernie III

···

-----Original Message-----
From: me@MiddleEarthGames.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bshushan]

I know I'm not even active in MEPBM right now, BUT ...

Learning to use and taking advantage of the market is a key factor of the
game. You could just as easily argue "the CL has an unfair advantage in
K/A, so will be 'easily to moderately' monitored in his use of the 615/620
order, and results will be changed by hand where we feel it has been used to
an excessive degree."

On a more specific note, how do you know there's no counter to the "Banker
Nation" strategy? Before you implement a significant change to the rules
based on some (non-DS playing perhaps?) people's lack of knowledge, lack of
effort to countermand, or just plain incomplete research (no offense - I'm
sure you've done as good a job as time allows, but, for instance, how many
times did you try each scenario - at least 30, I assume, so we know there's
no statistical variation in results?), I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I'm also troubled by the "by hand" enforcement suggested. This seems to be
the type of thing that people were worried about when English-language
moderation was consolidated, then that same consolidator became the program
owner as well. I'm not crying "fascist" - but others might, and I wouldn't
entirely blame them.

$2.00

b

···

-----Original Message-----
From: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ME Games Ltd
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:03 PM
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting
from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825
600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113
3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71
2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically
food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375
593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123
2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73
1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the
Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825
563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981
14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541
8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around
25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold
in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465
600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185
3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123
2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value
(basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long
Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510
570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617
9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350
5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game
sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465
563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516
7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324
4 32 63

  This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a
scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I
think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if
some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low
loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which
can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give
unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of
a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get
extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no
effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

  For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped
unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we
will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if
players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand
moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and
find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if
the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce
this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to
affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and
negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to
counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for
high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for
reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing
code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of
the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to
the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very
much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and
which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Charles_Crooks]

I have a few comments.

1). Is it really a good idea to change rules in the middle of the game?

2). How do you know there's no counter? Have you tried selling only one item, or having the Goods run a banker nation, or having the Goods sell everything?

3). Each side has advantages. In general, the Frees have greater militaries, the Evils have agents. In order to utilize their advantage, the Evils have to do a better job of coordinating; hence, equal play by both sides gives the Goods an inherent advantage. The One Banker Nation (OBN) strategy would seem to merely even the playing field. Would you deny the Goods their advantage by permitting only a certain number of troops over bridges? Or by allowing the Cloud Lord only a certain number of Agents?

4). I REALLY DO NOT like the "hand-moderated" solution that you've proposed. I don't understand how you intend to determine when someone intends to bump up market prices by sending someone Gold.

4). It's not clear what you intend to do when you've guessed - er, determined - that one Nation has sent another Nation Gold with the intention of bumping up market prices. It's also not clear what you intend to do when an individual attempts to break this rule repeatedly.

6). I percieve that, in Gunboat games, there's an inherent advantage to the Goods, in that the Evils can't communicate in order to send Agents where they're most needed. I percieve that this is a far greater problem than the ONB problem. Because of this inherent disadvantage on the part of the Evils, I don't participate in gunboat games. What do you intend to do about this problem?

In summation, it seems that ME Games has rushed to amend a situation that may or may not be a problem, (probably) based on a complaint by a few players on a Goods team who blamed or are blaming their defeat on legitimate strategies employed by their opponents, when there are other, more pressing, problems to be solved. ME Games' solution to the problem is poorly defined, poorly researched, poorly thought out, and may well create more problems than it solves, in the long run.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ME Games Ltd
  To: mepbmlist
  Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:03 AM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

  One banker Nation explored

  I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples.

  Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400

  Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18

  Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

  Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400

  Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26

  Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

  Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340

  Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194

  Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

  Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in the game does.

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490

  Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41

  Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

  Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400

  Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520

  Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

  Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

  MARKET PRICES

  Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

  Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550

  Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101

  Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

  This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

  Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

  One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

  I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

  For now we'll do that by hand :

  "You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

  It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

  This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

  We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

  I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

  If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

  Please discuss and give me your feedback.

  ** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

  As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

  If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

  Clint (GM)

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Briggs]

Clint, you knew this was coming.
   
  We've been talking about it fairly heavily on the MEPBM boards. I'll ask a simple question:
   
  Describe a counter that can be effective in turns 0-4 to counter immediate skyrocketing prices.
   
  I guess technically that wasn't a question ....
   
  JB

···

Benjamin Shushan <bshushan@earthlink.net> wrote:
          I know I'm not even active in MEPBM right now, BUT ...

Learning to use and taking advantage of the market is a key factor of the
game. You could just as easily argue "the CL has an unfair advantage in
K/A, so will be 'easily to moderately' monitored in his use of the 615/620
order, and results will be changed by hand where we feel it has been used to
an excessive degree."

On a more specific note, how do you know there's no counter to the "Banker
Nation" strategy? Before you implement a significant change to the rules
based on some (non-DS playing perhaps?) people's lack of knowledge, lack of
effort to countermand, or just plain incomplete research (no offense - I'm
sure you've done as good a job as time allows, but, for instance, how many
times did you try each scenario - at least 30, I assume, so we know there's
no statistical variation in results?), I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I'm also troubled by the "by hand" enforcement suggested. This seems to be
the type of thing that people were worried about when English-language
moderation was consolidated, then that same consolidator became the program
owner as well. I'm not crying "fascist" - but others might, and I wouldn't
entirely blame them.

$2.00

b

-----Original Message-----
From: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ME Games Ltd
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:03 PM
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting
from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825
600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113
3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71
2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically
food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375
593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123
2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73
1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the
Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825
563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981
14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541
8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around
25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold
in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465
600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185
3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123
2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value
(basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long
Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510
570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617
9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350
5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game
sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465
563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516
7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324
4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a
scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I
think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if
some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low
loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which
can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give
unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of
a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get
extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no
effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped
unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we
will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if
players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand
moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and
find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if
the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce
this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to
affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and
negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to
counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for
high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for
reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing
code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of
the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to
the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very
much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and
which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Harlequin_Games1]

I presume that a player that has his nation mostly sit on its gold -- i.e. the team doesn't ship him gold, he just tends to like a high reserve, so he doesn't raise as many troops or spend as much gold as many players, and as a result market prices do tend to be higher but not skyrocketed per se, is still fine?

Check out the forum - he can do both IMO (from the FTF experience).

In 4th Age which is what I mostly play it is less of a problem anyway as all nations of all allegiances are pretty balanced at this point, so you don't have the same situation at least at the start where one allegiance has a significantly stronger economy.

I agree it has least impact on the 1000 environment from a differential in economy perspective but it does impact on the game.

Anyway, nice to confirm that a single nation with huge reserves does indeed skew the market. We always thought that was the case, just not sure how much so as opposed to other market forces. Thanks for running these tests!

You're welcome.

Clint

···

-- Ernie III

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:me%40MiddleEarthGames.com>me@MiddleEarthGames.com
To: <mailto:mepbmlist%40yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

[Harlequin_Games1]

Hya guys To save answering the questions multiples times and potentially confusing the issue can you check out the forum - I've answered the questions there

http://www.mepbm.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1855

for ease of reference as these exact questions came up. For the bits I haven't replied to there: I'm pretty convinced (ie you'd be hard pressed to prove otherwise) that the same situation wouldn't develop in the same way each time the OBN (One Banker nation) strategy was employed. I'm pretty experienced in doing research (I've done a fair bit in my time and my background is both in Maths (Double Maths and Physicsat college and Astrophysics at University) and other players seem to back up my figures (that's why it came up!) I thought of around 3 other iterations I could have applied but it was clear straight away and confirmed by others.

Note GSI was the moderator and owner before.

Clint

···

At 19:35 07/12/06, you wrote:

I know I'm not even active in MEPBM right now, BUT ...

Learning to use and taking advantage of the market is a key factor of the
game. You could just as easily argue "the CL has an unfair advantage in
K/A, so will be 'easily to moderately' monitored in his use of the 615/620
order, and results will be changed by hand where we feel it has been used to
an excessive degree."

On a more specific note, how do you know there's no counter to the "Banker
Nation" strategy? Before you implement a significant change to the rules
based on some (non-DS playing perhaps?) people's lack of knowledge, lack of
effort to countermand, or just plain incomplete research (no offense - I'm
sure you've done as good a job as time allows, but, for instance, how many
times did you try each scenario - at least 30, I assume, so we know there's
no statistical variation in results?), I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I'm also troubled by the "by hand" enforcement suggested. This seems to be
the type of thing that people were worried about when English-language
moderation was consolidated, then that same consolidator became the program
owner as well. I'm not crying "fascist" - but others might, and I wouldn't
entirely blame them.

$2.00

b

[Harlequin_Games1]

1). Is it really a good idea to change rules in the middle of the game?

No - that's why we're not penalising nations that have already done it.

2). How do you know there's no counter? Have you tried selling only one item, or having the Goods run a banker nation, or having the Goods sell everything?

I 99% sure there's not one. Yes, yes and yes. Selling product would only increase the prices more, further inflating the market. To counter it you need to some how bring prices down - see my message about how I think that's not feasible.

http://www.mepbm.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1855

3). Each side has advantages. In general, the Frees have greater militaries, the Evils have agents. In order to utilize their advantage, the Evils have to do a better job of coordinating; hence, equal play by both sides gives the Goods an inherent advantage. The One Banker Nation (OBN) strategy would seem to merely even the playing field.

At present the game is very even - ie both sides win 50/50 (as checked out when I did a study on this for DS to FP win ratios see below for exact figures). As a player I think that FP need to co-ordinate more effectively than DS to win but that's by the by. This OBN would massively swing it in favour of the FP (and has IMO already won at least 2 games for the DS). As DS you can certainly compete financially, buy-outs, two Emi Artefacts etc. This makes it a no-contest.

Would you deny the Goods their advantage by permitting only a certain number of troops over bridges?

If there was shown to be something broken about the game I would certainly consider it yes. In this case there doesn't seem to be anything broken about such (DS have dragons to reduce the impact of the FP superiority in armies for example, better characters over-all, and better access to reduction of the FP armies via Agents, Curse etc).

Or by allowing the Cloud Lord only a certain number of Agents?

If that was similarly broken - it doesn't appear to - although I have had a lot of complaints about agent power I don't perceive any problem - I even wrote an article in Bree about how to deal with Agents! Note in 1000 games we did do that though. The game, as agreed by the majority of the players, has been improved because of this and similar changes to the set-up routine.

4). I REALLY DO NOT like the "hand-moderated" solution that you've proposed. I don't understand how you intend to determine when someone intends to bump up market prices by sending someone Gold.

Possibly I need to re-phrase it. How about - if the team send gold to a nation (or nations) such that the market increase beyond a certain level that the opposition feel that they must complain then we'll investigate it. If your intention as a player is to increase the market by sending gold that's not allowed. If you're doing it solely to support an ailing nation that's fine. If you can see a better way to write it that would be useful. I'm not a lawyer and generally intent is good enough for me but I understand that others might want something more concrete.

4). It's not clear what you intend to do when you've guessed - er, determined - that one Nation has sent another Nation Gold with the intention of bumping up market prices. It's also not clear what you intend to do when an individual attempts to break this rule repeatedly.

Like in GB we generally just remove the bonus. We would remove the gold sent. Say turn 1 LR sends gold to the Fire King, turn 2 the CL does and I check that the market has increased dramatically and that the FK had 40k with deficit of say 10k - ie there was no need for the CL to send money. Ie something's fishy... I've had a lot of experience running games and can usually get a good feel for when something is up.

I could put a hard limit on how much gold a nation can have - that would be a solution but removing the code that relates OBN to market prices is the clearly the way forward to stop this abuse.

6). I percieve that, in Gunboat games, there's an inherent advantage to the Goods, in that the Evils can't communicate in order to send Agents where they're most needed.

There is no such advantage - GB games Part of your point here seems to be that you feel DS need an advantage (I see that you presently only play DS and I wonder if that impacts on your thoughts here). 2950 normal games DS win 63% of the normal games (57% of the Grudge games and 83% of the GB games). For 1650 it's 51% in favour of the DS for normal games, 54% of the Grudge and 52% of the GB games. Ie the DS need no help.

I percieve that this is a far greater problem than the ONB problem. Because of this inherent disadvantage on the part of the Evils, I don't participate in gunboat games. What do you intend to do about this problem?

Check my data above and get back to me please. IMO the better players like to play the DS due to the perceived interest in the character development and game. Ie if anything the DS get an advantage that way.

In summation, it seems that ME Games has rushed to amend a situation that may or may not be a problem, (probably) based on a complaint by a few players on a Goods team who blamed or are blaming their defeat on legitimate strategies employed by their opponents, when there are other, more pressing, problems to be solved.

Um not so I'm afraid. Check out the hundred of so posts about this on the forum. I was very much a proponent of not changing it - I didn't believe that there was enough evidence to back up the claims of some of the players. I've now check that data out thoroughly, checked with the game designed, had others check my data and ask them to tell me what they inferred without prompting from me, etc and changed my mind. Note that very clearly please. I'm not prone to making snap decisions, or pandering to the vocal minority either, each thing I do is from a considered point of view in all cases.

ME Games' solution to the problem is poorly defined, poorly researched, poorly thought out, and may well create more problems than it solves, in the long run.

Um, I don't agree. I think I have many facts to back up my interpretation. I might not have enough facts, I might be misunderstanding them, but I put forward the "experiment" that I did, based on requests by players. I certainly may have missed something so please point that out for me if you can as that would be a great help. I'm pretty convinced now that gold sent to a nation impacts on the prices of the market in a manner that was i) not designed into the game [Check out http://www.mepbm.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1855 for more details please] and detrimental to the fun, enjoy and strategic play of the game. It's going to be some work for us to moderate it (when we can come to a rough understanding then I'll look at code implementation).

Feel free to get back to me. I hope that helps give some background to why I've put forward what I perceive to be a problem and what I perceive to be the solution. (Note it's not just me if that's an issue to some players).

Clint

···

----- Original Message -----
From: ME Games Ltd
To: mepbmlist
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:03 AM
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.14/578 - Release Date: 07/12/06

****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

[Harlequin_Games1]

I don't think there is a counter. That's part of the problem. Check out my answer on the forum. The rest of the game there's plays and counter-plays, tricks and techniques that can be learnt, improved on and countered. This is on that I don't feel you can do anything about

http://www.mepbm.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1855

for why I don't think you can.

I am aware of the whole world of pain that I'm letting myself in for... When we took over DGE I did 95 hour weeks - I'm hoping we don't get to that level (I'd like to see my children some time and it's rumoured I've got a wife!) Anything you can do to help would be much appreciated.

Clint

···

Clint, you knew this was coming.

We've been talking about it fairly heavily on the MEPBM boards. I'll ask a simple question:

Describe a counter that can be effective in turns 0-4 to counter immediate skyrocketing prices.

I guess technically that wasn't a question ....

JB

Benjamin Shushan <<mailto:bshushan%40earthlink.net>bshushan@earthlink.net> wrote:
I know I'm not even active in MEPBM right now, BUT ...

Learning to use and taking advantage of the market is a key factor of the
game. You could just as easily argue "the CL has an unfair advantage in
K/A, so will be 'easily to moderately' monitored in his use of the 615/620
order, and results will be changed by hand where we feel it has been used to
an excessive degree."

On a more specific note, how do you know there's no counter to the "Banker
Nation" strategy? Before you implement a significant change to the rules
based on some (non-DS playing perhaps?) people's lack of knowledge, lack of
effort to countermand, or just plain incomplete research (no offense - I'm
sure you've done as good a job as time allows, but, for instance, how many
times did you try each scenario - at least 30, I assume, so we know there's
no statistical variation in results?), I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I'm also troubled by the "by hand" enforcement suggested. This seems to be
the type of thing that people were worried about when English-language
moderation was consolidated, then that same consolidator became the program
owner as well. I'm not crying "fascist" - but others might, and I wouldn't
entirely blame them.

$2.00

b

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:mepbmlist%40yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ME Games Ltd
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:03 PM
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting
from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825
600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113
3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71
2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically
food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375
593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123
2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73
1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the
Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825
563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981
14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541
8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around
25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold
in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465
600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185
3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123
2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value
(basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long
Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510
570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617
9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350
5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game
sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465
563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516
7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324
4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a
scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I
think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if
some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low
loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which
can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give
unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of
a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get
extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no
effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped
unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we
will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if
players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand
moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and
find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if
the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce
this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to
affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and
negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to
counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for
high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for
reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing
code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of
the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to
the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very
much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and
which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

[Harlequin_Games1]

Note I do understand that I'm not going to make everyone happy here but I'll try to do what I always try to do and that is fun a fair game for everyone. If you see I've made an error please get back to me.

Clint (GM)

[Urzahil1]

I'm not sure I like the proposal to adjust the program code to "fix" this
"problem". While I haven't yet been in a game where everyone sent their gold
to one nation to do this, I have been in a few where I've built my own
nation's economy from the ground up, and aquired a treasury of 100k-200k on
my own (around turn 10-15) in order to raise the market prices. (For those
who are curious, I still recruit and send out large numbers of troops as
well to support the team, as well as sending out gold to those who need it.)

If the code is changed to decouple the market prices from the max treasury
size, this strategy wouldn't work anymore. Since I've never sent nor
received gold in order to raise market prices, you'd be eliminating a valid
strategy to deal with large deficits.

Mike Mulka

[Stuart]

Clint et al

Would it not be possible to introduce a voluntary
moratorium on the tactic ? Make it part of the initial
pre-game negotiation.

Cheers
Stuart

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in
some depth now. Starting from the same database I
set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620
3825 600 29250
          5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13
               113 3
10 18

Sell 6 7 8
               71 2
6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of
around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886
3375 593 67792
          10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19
               123 2
9 26

Sell 6 5 11
                73 1
5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game
sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes
to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040
3825 563 30750
          6375 2340

Buy 65 102
117 981 14
      93 194

Sell 36 56
65 541 8
    51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to
100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food).
Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in
the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219
3465 600 111942
           9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24
                185 3
16 41

Sell 10 11
16 123 2
    11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of
around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in
the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a
large amount of gold in the game and it all under
one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996
3510 570 275474
            9093 2400

Buy 170 175
329 2617 9
      202 520

Sell 88 90
170 1350 5
      104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other
than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS
nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
gold levels in the game as compare with test 1)
(948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze
Steel Mithril Food
            Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500
3465 563 30750
          5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67
                516 7
51 101

Sell 23 38
42 324 4
    32 63

  This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can
tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of
possibilities (there are other options of course but
I think the results are clear). My reading is as
follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone
did it (upto half if some players did it) and
although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties
throughout the nations on high tax) is probably
okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has
minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by
sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't
give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with
their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP)
weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to
get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices
preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation
strategy. There is no effective counter that an
opposing team can employ to deal with it.

  For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of
bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the
market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and
we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from
that banker nation and we will consider further
measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and
workable, especially if players abide by this
ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a
hand moderated ruling will work well. We do
something

=== message truncated ===

___________________________________________________________
Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

[Briggs]

Lol - my message/question was more to Benjamin than you.
   
  JB

          I don't think there is a counter. That's part of the problem. Check out
my answer on the forum. The rest of the game there's plays and
counter-plays, tricks and techniques that can be learnt, improved on and
countered. This is on that I don't feel you can do anything about

http://www.mepbm.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1855

for why I don't think you can.

I am aware of the whole world of pain that I'm letting myself in for...
When we took over DGE I did 95 hour weeks - I'm hoping we don't get to
that level (I'd like to see my children some time and it's rumoured I've
got a wife!) Anything you can do to help would be much appreciated.

Clint

···

ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

Clint, you knew this was coming.

We've been talking about it fairly heavily on the MEPBM boards. I'll ask a
simple question:

Describe a counter that can be effective in turns 0-4 to counter immediate
skyrocketing prices.

I guess technically that wasn't a question ....

JB

Benjamin Shushan <<mailto:bshushan%40earthlink.net>bshushan@earthlink.net>
wrote:
I know I'm not even active in MEPBM right now, BUT ...

Learning to use and taking advantage of the market is a key factor of the
game. You could just as easily argue "the CL has an unfair advantage in
K/A, so will be 'easily to moderately' monitored in his use of the 615/620
order, and results will be changed by hand where we feel it has been used to
an excessive degree."

On a more specific note, how do you know there's no counter to the "Banker
Nation" strategy? Before you implement a significant change to the rules
based on some (non-DS playing perhaps?) people's lack of knowledge, lack of
effort to countermand, or just plain incomplete research (no offense - I'm
sure you've done as good a job as time allows, but, for instance, how many
times did you try each scenario - at least 30, I assume, so we know there's
no statistical variation in results?), I strongly urge you to reconsider.

I'm also troubled by the "by hand" enforcement suggested. This seems to be
the type of thing that people were worried about when English-language
moderation was consolidated, then that same consolidator became the program
owner as well. I'm not crying "fascist" - but others might, and I wouldn't
entirely blame them.

$2.00

b

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:mepbmlist%40yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ME Games Ltd
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:03 PM
To: mepbmlist
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation

One banker Nation explored

I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting
from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
examples.

Test 1) No orders - just run the game.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 4620 3825
600 29250 5925 2400

Buy 9 11 13 113
3 10 18

Sell 6 7 8 71
2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically
food @2).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7380 9886 3375
593 67792 10326 2400

Buy 10 9 19 123
2 9 26

Sell 6 5 11 73
1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the
Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6930 5040 3825
563 30750 6375 2340

Buy 65 102 117 981
14 93 194

Sell 36 56 65 541
8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around
25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold
in the game does.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7110 8219 3465
600 111942 9093 2490

Buy 15 17 24 185
3 16 41

Sell 10 11 16 123
2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value
(basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long
Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 7650 10996 3510
570 275474 9093 2400

Buy 170 175 329 2617
9 202 520

Sell 88 90 170 1350
5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game
sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES

Product Leather Bronze Steel
Mithril Food Timber Mounts

Avail 6840 4500 3465
563 30750 5775 2550

Buy 36 60 67 516
7 51 101

Sell 23 38 42 324
4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a
scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I
think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if
some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low
loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which
can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't give
unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of
a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to get
extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this).

I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation strategy. There is no
effective counter that an opposing team can employ to deal with it.

For now we'll do that by hand :

"You may not send gold with the intention of bumping up the Market prices"

It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped
unfairly get in touch and we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we
will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if
players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand
moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and
find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if
the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce
this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to
affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and
negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to
counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for
high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for
reducing the impact of Buy-outs).

If this hand moderated rule is broadly popular, I'll look at implementing
code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of
the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to
the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

Please discuss and give me your feedback.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very
much appreciated. **

As from Monday you cannot employ this strategy.

If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and
which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: <http://www.yahoogroups.com>http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: <http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com>http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

______________________

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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.14/578 - Release Date: 07/12/06

****************************************************************
ME Games Ltd
me@middleearthgames.com
www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

______________________

john_h_briggs@yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[JCC]

There is a way to use a "banker nation" by a
combination of tactics and "not be using" a banker
nation. I've seen it. This is going to get very
muddled, especially since the cat is out of the bag to
those that didn't know about banker nation tactics
before. I don't know if you're not just better off
leaving it alone and game testing tactics for a
counter.

JCC

--- Stuart Millgan <stuartamilligan@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

···

Clint et al

Would it not be possible to introduce a voluntary
moratorium on the tactic ? Make it part of the
initial
pre-game negotiation.

Cheers
Stuart

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

> One banker Nation explored
>
> I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in
> some depth now. Starting from the same database I
> set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
> examples.
>
> Test 1) No orders - just run the game.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6930 4620

> 3825 600 29250

> 5925 2400
>
> Buy 9 11
13
> 113 3

> 10 18
>
> Sell 6 7
8
> 71 2

> 6 11
>
>
>
> Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of
> around 25k value (basically food @2).
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7380 9886

> 3375 593 67792

> 10326 2400
>
> Buy 10 9
19
> 123 2

> 9 26
>
> Sell 6 5
11
> 73 1

> 5 16
>
>
>
>
>
> Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game
> sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor
changes
> to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6930 5040

> 3825 563 30750

> 6375 2340
>
> Buy 65 102
> 117 981 14

> 93 194
>
> Sell 36 56

> 65 541 8

> 51 107
>
>
>
>
>
> Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to
> 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically
food).
> Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in
> the game does.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7110 8219

> 3465 600 111942

> 9093 2490
>
> Buy 15 17
24
> 185 3

> 16 41
>
> Sell 10 11

> 16 123 2

> 11 28
>
>
>
>
>
> Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s
of
> around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in
> the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie
a
> large amount of gold in the game and it all under
> one nation.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7650 10996

> 3510 570 275474

> 9093 2400
>
> Buy 170 175

> 329 2617 9

> 202 520
>
> Sell 88 90

> 170 1350 5

> 104 268
>
>
>
> Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other
> than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS
> nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
> gold levels in the game as compare with test 1)
> (948s 10%).
>
>
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze

> Steel Mithril Food

> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6840 4500

> 3465 563 30750

> 5775 2550
>
> Buy 36 60
67
> 516 7

> 51 101
>
> Sell 23 38

> 42 324 4

> 32 63
>
> This basically covered the broad spectrum (you
can
> tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of
> possibilities (there are other options of course
but
> I think the results are clear). My reading is as
> follows:
>
> Tax @100% basically doubles the market if
everyone
> did it (upto half if some players did it) and
> although has an inherent disadvantage (low
loyalties
> throughout the nations on high tax) is probably
> okay.
>
> One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has
> minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by
> sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't
> give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with
> their very major disadvantage of a (relative to
FP)
> weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to
> get extra product as the raised buy and sell
prices
> preclude this).
>
> I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation
> strategy. There is no effective counter that an
> opposing team can employ to deal with it.
>
> For now we'll do that by hand :
>
> "You may not send gold with the intention of
> bumping up the Market prices"
>
> It's simple to moderate - if players feel that
the
> market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and
> we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
> occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from
> that banker nation and we will consider further
> measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
> fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).
>
> This is the simplest short term solution and
> workable, especially if players abide by this
> ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a
> hand moderated ruling will work well. We do
> something
=== message truncated ===

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[Harlequin_Games1]

Yes as well - but we want to fix it.

Clint

···

At 08:43 08/12/06, you wrote:

Clint et al

Would it not be possible to introduce a voluntary
moratorium on the tactic ? Make it part of the initial
pre-game negotiation.

Cheers
Stuart

--- ME Games Ltd <<mailto:me%40MiddleEarthGames.com>me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

> One banker Nation explored
>
> I've looked at the One banker nation strategy in
> some depth now. Starting from the same database I
> set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following
> examples.
>
> Test 1) No orders - just run the game.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6930 4620
> 3825 600 29250
> 5925 2400
>
> Buy 9 11 13
> 113 3
> 10 18
>
> Sell 6 7 8
> 71 2
> 6 11
>
> Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of
> around 25k value (basically food @2).
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7380 9886
> 3375 593 67792
> 10326 2400
>
> Buy 10 9 19
> 123 2
> 9 26
>
> Sell 6 5 11
> 73 1
> 5 16
>
> Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game
> sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes
> to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6930 5040
> 3825 563 30750
> 6375 2340
>
> Buy 65 102
> 117 981 14
> 93 194
>
> Sell 36 56
> 65 541 8
> 51 107
>
> Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to
> 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food).
> Ie testing to see what a a large amount of gold in
> the game does.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7110 8219
> 3465 600 111942
> 9093 2490
>
> Buy 15 17 24
> 185 3
> 16 41
>
> Sell 10 11
> 16 123 2
> 11 28
>
> Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of
> around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in
> the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a
> large amount of gold in the game and it all under
> one nation.
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 7650 10996
> 3510 570 275474
> 9093 2400
>
> Buy 170 175
> 329 2617 9
> 202 520
>
> Sell 88 90
> 170 1350 5
> 104 268
>
> Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other
> than all gold in the game sent by all 11 other DS
> nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total
> gold levels in the game as compare with test 1)
> (948s 10%).
>
> MARKET PRICES
>
> Product Leather Bronze
> Steel Mithril Food
> Timber Mounts
>
> Avail 6840 4500
> 3465 563 30750
> 5775 2550
>
> Buy 36 60 67
> 516 7
> 51 101
>
> Sell 23 38
> 42 324 4
> 32 63
>
> This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can
> tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of
> possibilities (there are other options of course but
> I think the results are clear). My reading is as
> follows:
>
> Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone
> did it (upto half if some players did it) and
> although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties
> throughout the nations on high tax) is probably
> okay.
>
> One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has
> minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by
> sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn't
> give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with
> their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP)
> weak economy. (Note it doesn't, IMO, allow you to
> get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices
> preclude this).
>
> I propose that we ban the One Banker Nation
> strategy. There is no effective counter that an
> opposing team can employ to deal with it.
>
> For now we'll do that by hand :
>
> "You may not send gold with the intention of
> bumping up the Market prices"
>
> It's simple to moderate - if players feel that the
> market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and
> we'll check the orders. If we find that it has
> occurred, we'll remove all the gold received from
> that banker nation and we will consider further
> measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still
> fine for other reasons - it's easy to moderate).
>
> This is the simplest short term solution and
> workable, especially if players abide by this
> ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a
> hand moderated ruling will work well. We do
> something
=== message truncated ===

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                 ME Games Ltd
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[Harlequin_Games1]

Wouldn't you then be able to use the gold to finance your troops, etc?

I think the market prices need to be fixed for the reasons I gave.

Clint

···

At 02:26 08/12/06, you wrote:

I'm not sure I like the proposal to adjust the program code to "fix" this
"problem". While I haven't yet been in a game where everyone sent their gold
to one nation to do this, I have been in a few where I've built my own
nation's economy from the ground up, and aquired a treasury of 100k-200k on
my own (around turn 10-15) in order to raise the market prices. (For those
who are curious, I still recruit and send out large numbers of troops as
well to support the team, as well as sending out gold to those who need it.)

If the code is changed to decouple the market prices from the max treasury
size, this strategy wouldn't work anymore. Since I've never sent nor
received gold in order to raise market prices, you'd be eliminating a valid
strategy to deal with large deficits.

Mike Mulka

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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

[Harlequin_Games1]

Note high gold in the market will still influence the prices. I think I showed that in my tests (and my estimate of what impact it would have).

Clint

···

I'm not sure I like the proposal to adjust the program code to "fix" this
"problem". While I haven't yet been in a game where everyone sent their gold
to one nation to do this, I have been in a few where I've built my own
nation's economy from the ground up, and aquired a treasury of 100k-200k on
my own (around turn 10-15) in order to raise the market prices. (For those
who are curious, I still recruit and send out large numbers of troops as
well to support the team, as well as sending out gold to those who need it.)

If the code is changed to decouple the market prices from the max treasury
size, this strategy wouldn't work anymore. Since I've never sent nor
received gold in order to raise market prices, you'd be eliminating a valid
strategy to deal with large deficits.

Mike Mulka

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.14/578 - Release Date: 07/12/06

****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

[Drukarzun1]

No, it is a terrible idea.

"Charles Crooks@scdial.com" <wargamer@zianet.com> wrote: I have a few comments.

1). Is it really a good idea to change rules in the middle of the game?

···

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[Drukarzun1]

Clint,
  You *are* penalizing teams that have taken this route. It was not against the rules at the time it was implemented. You can't put toothpaste back in the tube; at the very least, let the current games play out to see what comes to pass. Rules should not be changed in the middle of a game -- not just MEPBM, any game -- and any rule, not just the OBN ploy.
  Drew

···

ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:
  

1). Is it really a good idea to change rules in the middle of the game?

No - that's why we're not penalising nations that have already done it.

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[Harlequin_Games1]

As to bringing the ruling in mid-game because it's a bug in the program, (ie something that was programmed that has an unexpected, and unwanted, side effect), then I feel it's warranted. For now that's a hand-moderated fix (fixing future offences, but not dealing with OBN at present if it's already occurred - ie the nations will gain a benefit for the market), when I've worked out exactly how to fix it for all games I'll sort that out.

Ideally I'd like the teams that have the gold to send it out to their team-mates but I'm not ruling that you should do that. (The bug is still there) It's seems a fair compromise.

As for nations getting gold up themselves, I think that's fine at present. We'll remove the link with OBN and the market (I suspect - or reduce it's impact) but keep the gold in market reflected in prices etc. That seems both the way the market is supposed to work, fits within the game framework and should make for a competitive game. I can see how that can be tactically done in games. So it will have a lower impact I can forsee as OBN won't be strongly linked to gold prices on the market but overall gold in the market will impact.

I'll look at getting an example of the changes to the code that I'd like to implement (run some tests so that you can see the impact with various tactics and garner feedback). That will take a little time.

I've seen the bug where you could use Companies and 870 to get effectively 24 hexes. When the fix occurred it just was implemented and we had complaints. Basically if you're using a bug (and I'm classifying this as one for the above reasons) then beware. I'm no critisicising anyone who has used it btw - I just think the impact is too strong in the game for the loss (IMO no loss as you make your money back the very next turn and end up with 200k+ gold in one nation and high natsell prices for the rest of the game) incurred.

Note as an aside, Sam's laughing at me (Legends has just had 17 bug fixes!) the beauty of an old program, assiduous players and the like...

Clint (GM)