One Banker nation

Yes (you missed something...), you described taking
increasing action against my Nation in the Game. I,
Brad Brunet, may flaunt your rule and send my banker
in G51 gold, every turn, just to keep you busy. What
are you going to do about it?

Why would you want to do that? You brought up the bug in the first place... :slight_smile: Why would you want to waste our time deliberately?!

Are you going to take LR's gold away from him? Penalize my innocent Banker
"ally"? Bankrupt the LR nation as "punishment"..?

I've described the action we'll take.

Or, are you going to penalize ME. Brad Brunet.
Instead of the Long Rider in game 51.

Consistent offences will incur greater penalty. If a player (such as in GB games) continues to offend we will take action appropriately.

Clint

The difference is, all players in a gunboat game agreed to a set of rules, variant rules or house rules, BEFORE the game. A proper analogy would be to say, ok in this regular game that happens to be on T7, as of Monday, you can not communicate with your allies. We are going to enforce this rule as we think it is best for the Game, and call you a cheater if you don't comply.

If that was a game breaker then we'd act. In our house rules we reserve the right to do this - so you have actually already signed up to this ruling. Say it was realised that if you named your character Clint Oldridge you gained 100k gold for no loss. You'd want us to take action straight away right? This is an aspect of that situation. Do 1 948 order for each nation gain 100k gold per turn for you and your allies. If you don't think that's out of order in the game then I don't know what you'd think would be....

We've interfered in games (and I realise this is interference - but note we very, very, very rarely do it - so the fact that we are doing it implies that it is very broken).

Anyone actually agree with me out there btw? :slight_smile: It would be good to know what players feel here.

Clint

And I disagree with "don't be hypothetical, show me an
actual pdf". How about, after all that testing, you
do some more to establish what you would consider an
appropriate level of Reserves that shows, by itself, a
marked effect on the Market such that that particular
level of reserves *is* the only culprit.

I have shown you an example - the Eothraim. I thought of the maximum amount of gold I could spend and that's why I came to the level of gold that I did come to. Even if you don't agree with the amount of gold (say you felt that it should be higher) do you agree that the concept is correct? I want the lowest level of gold that any nation would be capable of working with. I've seen the levels of maintenance that nations have, I've seen how much gold they spend. If you want a different figure give a reasoned argument for what that figure should be, with the requirement that it's the lowest value that we can get so that the OBN has the minimal impact it can have. That figure is 80k - it might be out by say 10k (so 90k) but I estimate that to be in exceptional situations and have already commented that should you feel that this situation warrant it that you get in touch. What more do you want?!

Any gold impacts on the market - I've shown that already. The more you have the more the prices raise, and it's directly related to the OBN nation as well (as shown in the test games I run). Ie if you just have a lot of gold in the market (as shown by the 100% and natsell tests you get between 1.5 to 2 x the normal prices you'd expect at game start - and those values at game start are already very high). If you do the OBN nation (and I showed two examples) then you get the x4-6 values that I showed. So I've already answered this question.

These are not arbitrary values I choose. they are values from what I have seen in game. As to my experience of the game I've now run over 2000 turns myself in the game so I consider myself relatively experienced, understand the game mechanics reasonably well {still happy to be proven wrong] so feel that with over 13 years of GMing games as well I do have a vague grasp of what is going on in games, including what takes to win them (having played you personally Brad, I think you've got a loose idea of my skill levels there) and what levels of gold are needed to achieve certain objectives within the game and that's why the figure of 80k gold has come up.

And then analyze that data by total game gold, total
market gold, gold production, total buy/sell values,
etc, and discover a number of *ratios* that clearly
demonstrate where this "bug" impacts the market.

I have done that enough to be able to make a ruling. It's clear to me the impact it has on the game. I could analyse every order for the next 10 years but I feel that would be a waste of my time, and in the end you guys would suffer from my lack of attention to the other aspects of running the game and continued development of it.

(ie, flag any gold transfers and reverse them at turn
end if market circumstances met X, Y, Z, A11.01A, etc,
criteria).

Feel free to put forward criteria. I think I've already proven that I listen to well reasoned feedback.

I'm not quite sure if

1) You just don't like the ruling, if so please suggest another one
2) You don't like the ruling being applied to current games, if so please suggest why it shouldn't be applied considering what I think needs to be done and the reasons that I think they need to be done.
3) Something else,

You complained when I didn't do anything about it and now you are complaining when I am doing something about it... :slight_smile: You've not suggested a different solution so I don't know what I can do to please you here Brad.

Clint

Maybe this is just a 1650 thing (which I stopped playing a LONG time ago),
but I'm not sure how someone can support only one allegiance by affecting
market prices. Market prices are the same for everyone, so a high market
should be beneficial to everyone. Am I missing something?

I would say yes. The major disadvantage for DS is their starting economy and ability to name, recruit armies and other needy things. This bug basically removes the need for that aspect of the game - as DS win 50/50 then it clearly favours them.

If you want to stop a team from sending all their gold to one nation, why
not just put a limit on how much money you can have in your treasury before
you can RECEIVE gold shipments (or ransom payments). (ie; Too much gold =
order failure.)

We thought of that - Maintenance plus (say) 20k gold allowed maximum in a turn. There are flaws there. Basically you can have one nation reduce all it's upkeep costs and very quickly become a very good OBN. This solution of limiting the amount of gold a nation can receive from others deals with the OBN (where the OBN is directly related to the amount of golf one nation has to the prices and natsell limits in the market).

Like other orders (at least in 4th Age), perhas that limit
could rise as the game goes on to reflect the inherently bigger economies
that happen later in the game. This should minimize the usefulness of this
allegedly unbalancing tactic without completely decoupling the max treasury
size from the market costs.

Possibly - I'm hoping that we'll have the code change done by then.

Earlier Clint said that manipulating the market using market buyouts is a
legitimate "tactic", while manipulating the market prices by having one
nation with a large treasury is a "loophole". I fail to see why one is "bad"
and the other is "good".

One the other players can do something about, ie it's open to both teams. The other the second team can't do anything about - removing the entire strategic element of the economy game. Basically with the OBN you can effectively scrap economy as an aspect of the game.

Either market manipulation is a valid tactic or it
isn't.

See above for why I don't follow that line of argument.

Either allow it or don't allow it. Allowing one type of market
manipulation (that some players might be better at) and not allowing other
types seems a bit like stacking the game in favor of one group of players.

It's keeping it even.

Clint

Would it not be possible to just compromise the tactic
by making it increasingly expensive to transfer gold
up to the required level ?

Have the caravans take a greater percentage (x%, y% or
z%) if the banker nation already has a, b or c
thousand in the treasury.

Cheers
Stuart

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

>Maybe this is just a 1650 thing (which I stopped
playing a LONG time ago),
>but I'm not sure how someone can support only one
allegiance by affecting
>market prices. Market prices are the same for
everyone, so a high market
>should be beneficial to everyone. Am I missing
something?

I would say yes. The major disadvantage for DS is
their starting economy
and ability to name, recruit armies and other needy
things. This bug
basically removes the need for that aspect of the
game - as DS win 50/50
then it clearly favours them.

>If you want to stop a team from sending all their
gold to one nation, why
>not just put a limit on how much money you can have
in your treasury before
>you can RECEIVE gold shipments (or ransom
payments). (ie; Too much gold =
>order failure.)

We thought of that - Maintenance plus (say) 20k gold
allowed maximum in a
turn. There are flaws there. Basically you can
have one nation reduce all
it's upkeep costs and very quickly become a very
good OBN. This solution
of limiting the amount of gold a nation can receive
from others deals with
the OBN (where the OBN is directly related to the
amount of golf one nation
has to the prices and natsell limits in the market).

>Like other orders (at least in 4th Age), perhas
that limit
>could rise as the game goes on to reflect the
inherently bigger economies
>that happen later in the game. This should minimize
the usefulness of this
>allegedly unbalancing tactic without completely
decoupling the max treasury
>size from the market costs.

Possibly - I'm hoping that we'll have the code
change done by then.

>Earlier Clint said that manipulating the market
using market buyouts is a
>legitimate "tactic", while manipulating the market
prices by having one
>nation with a large treasury is a "loophole". I
fail to see why one is "bad"
>and the other is "good".

One the other players can do something about, ie
it's open to both
teams. The other the second team can't do anything
about - removing the
entire strategic element of the economy game.
Basically with the OBN you
can effectively scrap economy as an aspect of the
game.

> Either market manipulation is a valid tactic or
it
>isn't.

See above for why I don't follow that line of
argument.

>Either allow it or don't allow it. Allowing one
type of market
>manipulation (that some players might be better at)
and not allowing other
>types seems a bit like stacking the game in favor
of one group of players.

It's keeping it even.

Clint

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Yes as a coding solution I think that would be okay. BUT it wouldn't remove the OBN just reduce it's impact. With code changes I'm aiming to remove that. The ruling I've put forward does that in most cases at present by stopping the majority of its impact.

Clint

···

Would it not be possible to just compromise the tactic
by making it increasingly expensive to transfer gold
up to the required level ?

Have the caravans take a greater percentage (x%, y% or
z%) if the banker nation already has a, b or c
thousand in the treasury.

Cheers
Stuart

--- ME Games Ltd <<mailto:me%40MiddleEarthGames.com>me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

>
> >Maybe this is just a 1650 thing (which I stopped
> playing a LONG time ago),
> >but I'm not sure how someone can support only one
> allegiance by affecting
> >market prices. Market prices are the same for
> everyone, so a high market
> >should be beneficial to everyone. Am I missing
> something?
>
> I would say yes. The major disadvantage for DS is
> their starting economy
> and ability to name, recruit armies and other needy
> things. This bug
> basically removes the need for that aspect of the
> game - as DS win 50/50
> then it clearly favours them.
>
> >If you want to stop a team from sending all their
> gold to one nation, why
> >not just put a limit on how much money you can have
> in your treasury before
> >you can RECEIVE gold shipments (or ransom
> payments). (ie; Too much gold =
> >order failure.)
>
> We thought of that - Maintenance plus (say) 20k gold
> allowed maximum in a
> turn. There are flaws there. Basically you can
> have one nation reduce all
> it's upkeep costs and very quickly become a very
> good OBN. This solution
> of limiting the amount of gold a nation can receive
> from others deals with
> the OBN (where the OBN is directly related to the
> amount of golf one nation
> has to the prices and natsell limits in the market).
>
> >Like other orders (at least in 4th Age), perhas
> that limit
> >could rise as the game goes on to reflect the
> inherently bigger economies
> >that happen later in the game. This should minimize
> the usefulness of this
> >allegedly unbalancing tactic without completely
> decoupling the max treasury
> >size from the market costs.
>
> Possibly - I'm hoping that we'll have the code
> change done by then.
>
> >Earlier Clint said that manipulating the market
> using market buyouts is a
> >legitimate "tactic", while manipulating the market
> prices by having one
> >nation with a large treasury is a "loophole". I
> fail to see why one is "bad"
> >and the other is "good".
>
> One the other players can do something about, ie
> it's open to both
> teams. The other the second team can't do anything
> about - removing the
> entire strategic element of the economy game.
> Basically with the OBN you
> can effectively scrap economy as an aspect of the
> game.
>
> > Either market manipulation is a valid tactic or
> it
> >isn't.
>
> See above for why I don't follow that line of
> argument.
>
> >Either allow it or don't allow it. Allowing one
> type of market
> >manipulation (that some players might be better at)
> and not allowing other
> >types seems a bit like stacking the game in favor
> of one group of players.
>
> It's keeping it even.
>
> Clint
>

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                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

I am not sure if I agree with you Clint or not. I would like to know how many of these protesting (or should I say screaming players) play mostly evil nations and how many play mostly good. Almost every time I have seen Brad he has played DS is this true for most of these guys. Because then of course we know why they are protesting, perhaps if you did do the limited bridge crossing one player proposed most of the protesters would be people who tend to be free people players. I am just curious. Brad just so you know I am not picking on you I just recognize your name the most out of the protesters.

Serra

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ME Games Ltd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation - update ruling

  >The difference is, all players in a gunboat game agreed to a set of rules,
  >variant rules or house rules, BEFORE the game. A proper analogy would be
  >to say, ok in this regular game that happens to be on T7, as of Monday,
  >you can not communicate with your allies. We are going to enforce this
  >rule as we think it is best for the Game, and call you a cheater if you
  >don't comply.

  If that was a game breaker then we'd act. In our house rules we reserve
  the right to do this - so you have actually already signed up to this
  ruling. Say it was realised that if you named your character Clint
  Oldridge you gained 100k gold for no loss. You'd want us to take action
  straight away right? This is an aspect of that situation. Do 1 948 order
  for each nation gain 100k gold per turn for you and your allies. If you
  don't think that's out of order in the game then I don't know what you'd
  think would be....

  We've interfered in games (and I realise this is interference - but note we
  very, very, very rarely do it - so the fact that we are doing it implies
  that it is very broken).

  Anyone actually agree with me out there btw? :slight_smile: It would be good to know
  what players feel here.

  Clint

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am not sure if I agree with you Clint or not. I would like to know how many of these protesting (or should I say screaming players) play mostly evil nations and how many play mostly good.

As you asked. Most are playing DS with OBN strategy in play for their sides. Where they are playing FP the DS are not using OBN.

Clint

To start, Clint et al (Tara brought up "screaming
DS"...) I'm not "complaining". I'm insisting things
get done properly. Reactionary and arbitrary are not
proper. So Clint, I'm simply pushing you to be as
complete as possible. You can't do anything to
"please" me, because I'm already quite content,
thanks.

First off, it's not a One Banker Nation that 1) we're
talking about and 2) you want to change the code to
prevent.

Harad working by himself can have over 300,000 gold
before turn 10 easily enough to be a "One Banker
Nation" who greatly impacts the market. So both find
a new name for this allegiance gold transfer ploy AND
ensure any "code" changes impact the gold transfers,
NOT the behaviour of the market due to a Single
treasury having lots of gold.

Brad

Hope your defecit ain't 80,001

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ME Games Ltd
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:56 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation - update ruling

  Ruling version 2.

  "Gold sent to a nation that brings the nations total reserves to more than
  80k gold will have that exact amount of gold sent deducted from its
  stores. In addition gold received by that nation from other sources such
  as Ransom demands from team-mates etc will be dealt with similarly.

  Later offences will be dealt with more strongly. Examples of this include
  removal of additional gold from the receiving nation."

  If you see a flaw in the above rules then please suggest
  changes. Assistance, rather than ridicule, is very much appreciated.

  Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've described the action we'll take.

[snip]

Consistent offences will incur greater penalty. If
a player (such as in GB
games) continues to offend we will take action
appropriately.

Clint, I've been trying to get you to clarify between
affecting the nation in the game and the player
playing that nation. You refuse to clarify.

If I try to send 25,000 gold the order gets reversed.
Fine. I try again, what happens...? Do you penalize
me, Brad, or do you penalize my nation over and above
reversing the order? It seems to me that not only
will you reverse the 25,000 order buy the next step
would be to actually remove that 25,000 from
existence..? It neither goes to the banker NOR
returns to my nation? Say "He was ordered to transfer
by caravans. He did not check the caravans licensing
documents rigorously and instead transferred 25,000
gold to shylocks and rip off artists. The gold was
never seen again."

Brad

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

Sorry Tara, you're impression here doesn't accurately
reflect reality. I've played mostly FP in my life
(2/3 FP) and all my Grudge games as FP (expecting a
new one next year as DS..). 2 current games are DS as
I feel like getting around to playing all nations one
day. One game we've pumped the market and another we
haven't. I care not either way, and have been on
record with numerous teams as FP not caring to affect
the Market. I'm on record in a number of places as
saying I wouldn't mind/care as a FP if the market went
crazy and think it would benefit the FP in a number of
ways that would make it interesting to play it out.
Imagine the Eothraim or Woodmen running max
mililtaries and never needing help..? Imagine if the
FP never sold their 10-20+ thousand Timber a turn but
instead *used* it..?

It's very difficult to think that in the vast majority
of cases this market scheme will *not* benefit the DS
to the detriment of game balance in general. But I
was proven wrong when I believed that the DS were
already winning 2/3 of the games. So maybe I/we are
overreacting to this as well...? Something to
consider.

So while I agree it's 95+% of absolute benefit to the
DS, and frequent use of the Single Banker Nation will
skew the game results towards the DS, I'm not
absolutely convinced that these conclusions are
"proven" in any way and in general, I react poorly to
what I perceive to be reactionary and arbitrary
decisions. I've made enough of those in my life to
understand the odds of "correctness" are low (in
principle).

Regards,

Brad

···

--- Tara Silva <vanya1@comcast.net> wrote:

I am not sure if I agree with you Clint or not. I
would like to know how many of these protesting (or
should I say screaming players) play mostly evil
nations and how many play mostly good. Almost every
time I have seen Brad he has played DS is this true
for most of these guys.

Love to! bbme@rogers.com if you like.

Cheers,

Brad

···

--- Kevin O'Keefe <kevin.okeefe@zen.co.uk> wrote:

And then analyze that data by total game gold, total
market gold, gold production, total buy/sell values,
etc, and discover a number of *ratios* that clearly
demonstrate where this "bug" impacts the market.

Brad,

I've done that. Want to see it....?

Whose is going to be? If that's the case then we do allow exceptions. :slight_smile: Biggest I got mine to was around 35k. Can you show me an example where this has occurred?

Clint

···

Hope your defecit ain't 80,001

----- Original Message -----
From: ME Games Ltd
To: <mailto:mepbmlist%40yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 1:56 PM
Subject: [mepbmlist] One Banker nation - update ruling

Ruling version 2.

"Gold sent to a nation that brings the nations total reserves to more than
80k gold will have that exact amount of gold sent deducted from its
stores. In addition gold received by that nation from other sources such
as Ransom demands from team-mates etc will be dealt with similarly.

Later offences will be dealt with more strongly. Examples of this include
removal of additional gold from the receiving nation."

If you see a flaw in the above rules then please suggest
changes. Assistance, rather than ridicule, is very much appreciated.

Clint (GM)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

If I try to send 25,000 gold the order gets reversed.

No you lose that gold.

Fine. I try again, what happens...? Do you penalize
me, Brad, or do you penalize my nation over and above
reversing the order?

We reserve the right to take appropriate action. Most likely that would be to remove not only that second gold send (say of 25k g) but give that player a final warning. Further impacts and you'll be removed from the game. Note if we feel that a player is deliberately breaking the rules then we might well enact such a ruling earlier. That would be for players who've already publically claimed that they are going to do it for example and as we see fit. Ie if you break the rules we'll take appropriate action and that can be anything from removing the gold sent to removal of further in game funds and removal of that player from that game. Any player that brings the game into disrepute we reserve the right to act further.

Clint

Brad you want a perfect solution. The only solution that will fit that criteria is one is done with code fix. Nothing else wil. The hard limit I've put forward will fix it in most of the situations but there are loopholes in even that. (Ie even 80k gold will affect the market price as a OBN).

As to defining terms, feel free to call it what you want. A Grudge game is technically not the correct name for such a format, should I spend several hours to find a better name?! We're not, as someone pointed out, the US Penal system with a thousand pages of laws etc. We''ll check the markets where players complain and by ourselves and if we've found that gold has been sent in the manner I've described then we'll take the action described. OBN is fine - One Banker Nation.

There are ways around it - I've attempted to show them and stop them. However, it doesn't seem appropriate to take gold away from one nation that has earned it itself but will slowly impact on the market over the game - rather than the immediate impact that a team sending gold to one nation will have - ie there's a big difference both in intent and impact here for a, say, Neutral building up its gold reserves and a team sending gold. The code change will reduce the impact that such will have on the game and, in the case of a Neutral, you will be able to interact with that from both teams. I agree with you that DS are the primary beneficiaries of this bug.

All I have had are complaints from you. I've asked you for real world examples as you complained that 80k was not accurate, but you've not given me such an example, (whereas I have done so).

Why am I calling it a Bug? Because it was something that was put into the program - it was an error of coding. They come up so rarely in Middle Earth, I'm very glad to say, that action has to be taken now to stop its impact.

Lars brings up an interesting point. I like that maybe we can have a limit on any nation having gold only upto 200k by its own efforts (ie natselling and tax changes). That will reduce the impact on the game for Neutrals that are in the game. Thoughts welcome. (Note until we code change it we can't encode it).

Clint

Clint

···

To start, Clint et al (Tara brought up "screaming
DS"...) I'm not "complaining". I'm insisting things
get done properly. Reactionary and arbitrary are not
proper. So Clint, I'm simply pushing you to be as
complete as possible. You can't do anything to
"please" me, because I'm already quite content,
thanks.

First off, it's not a One Banker Nation that 1) we're
talking about and 2) you want to change the code to
prevent.

Harad working by himself can have over 300,000 gold
before turn 10 easily enough to be a "One Banker
Nation" who greatly impacts the market. So both find
a new name for this allegiance gold transfer ploy AND
ensure any "code" changes impact the gold transfers,
NOT the behaviour of the market due to a Single
treasury having lots of gold.

Brad

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 08/12/06

****************************************************************
                 ME Games Ltd
         me@middleearthgames.com
         www.middleearthgames.com

UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP
         Tel 029 2091 3359 12-6.30 Weekdays
         Fax 029 2062 5532 24 hours

US: 73 Edgewood Terrace, South Bound Brook, NJ 08880
         Tel (732) 642 8777 EST
         Fax 503 296 2325 (comes straight to us)
****************************************************************

Brad you want a perfect solution.

No. That's your interpretation.

All I have had are complaints from you.

Not true. But I've obviously coloured your glasses.
"Oh, Brad again, he's going to complain and whine."
Therefore, no matter what words I use, no matter how
many different ways I try to explain my intent, all
you see is "Complain". I don't even think you read my
words, you already know what they are. Good enough
then, no more "complaints" from me.

Brad

···

--- ME Games Ltd <me@MiddleEarthGames.com> wrote:

One banker Nation explored

When does this apply? As from Monday 11th December you cannot employ this strategy. If you have sent in orders for a game which runs on Monday or later, and which would break this new rule, you should send in a new set of orders.

What is being banned? The One Banker Nation (OBN for short) strategy is now banned. There is no effective counter that an opposing (FP) team can employ to deal with it. We will update the ruling in the Front Sheet GM Message section should updates occur and on the forum and list.

Why is this a Bug? and not mid-game change of rules. I chatted to the game designer about this and it’s unintended. It is an error of coding. They come up so rarely in Middle Earth, I'm very glad to say, that action has to be taken now to stop its impact. Due to the enormous impact it has on the game we feel that steps need to be taken now. In most cases it removes the entire need for a strategic economic element to the game and therefore benefits the DS majorly. There is a direct correlation between gold in the One Banker nation (the nation with the highest level of gold) and the market prices and natsell limits. (See below for example Leather @23 sell price employing this strategy).

Has everyone been contacted? Yes – note if you want to see some of the discussion check out the forum (it’s the sticky thread called One Banker Nation Ruling) and the list.

For now we’ll do that by hand (and I’ll implement a code change as soon as we can get something sorted and tested):

Ruling 10th December 2006; “Gold sent to a single nation with the goal of significant upward increase of market prices is not allowed, whether through caravan transport, ransom demands, or other methods. Gold sent to a nation that brings the nations total reserves to more than 80k gold will have that exact amount of gold sent deducted from its stores. In addition gold received by that nation from other sources such as Ransom demands from team-mates etc will be dealt with similarly.

Such an attempt may be judged to have occurred if the upward increase of market prices occurs coincident to the transfer of gold. Judgement may be requested by the opposing team if it feels this ruling has been violated. The judgement will be made by the moderator with opportunity for explanation by the team in question if requested

Later offences will be dealt with more strongly. Examples of this include removal of additional gold from the receiving nation but other penalties might apply. We reserve the right to take appropriate action. Most likely that would be to remove not only that second gold send but give that player a final warning. Further impacts and you'll be removed from the game. Note if we feel that a player is deliberately breaking the rules then we might well enact such a ruling earlier. Ie if you break the rules we'll take appropriate action and that can be anything from removing the gold sent to removal of further in game funds and removal of that player from that game. Any player that brings the game into disrepute we reserve the right to act further."

It’s simple to moderate - if players feel that the market has been bumped unfairly get in touch and we’ll check the orders. If we find that it has occurred, we’ll remove all the gold received from that banker nation and we will consider further measures. (Note sending gold to nations is still fine for other reasons - it’s easy to moderate).

This is the simplest short term solution and workable, especially if players abide by this ruling. Players are generally very ethical, so a hand moderated ruling will work well. We do something very similar in Gunboat and find it works fine.

We will not make any changes to the market prices in current games, even if the banker nation tactic has been used. However, from Monday we will enforce this new ruling.

I intend to take no action about using high tax rates or market buy-outs to affect the market prices. They are tactical choices, with both positives and negatives, and there are strategies which opposing teams can employ to counter them. (Eg Emmissaries for low loyalty PCs, ease of Threatening for high tax nations, and selling product and keeping a low gold level for reducing the impact of Buy-outs). We might look at keeping gold levels below 200k in future for other nations in the game as we appreciate that some Neutrals will look at increasing their own gold values appropriately.

I’ll soon look at implementing code changes. These will aim to emulate the present market, with removal of the One Banker nation strategy. No doubt this will have minor changes to the market code, but I feel that something needs to be done here.

** Thanks to everyone for bringing this to my attention; it is very, very much appreciated. **

Data I’ve looked at the One banker nation strategy in some depth now. Starting from the same database I set up a game and run from Turn 0 the following examples. Data from which I’ve garnered this evidence (and other games but here’s the short version).

Test 1) No orders – I just run the game.

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 6930 4620 3825 600 29250 5925 2400
Buy 9 11 13 113 3 10 18
Sell 6 7 8 71 2 6 11

Test 2) No orders other than 325s (Natsells) of around 25k value (basically food @2).

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 7380 9886 3375 593 67792 10326 2400
Buy 10 9 19 123 2 9 26
Sell 6 5 11 73 1 5 16

Test 3) No orders other than all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to gold levels to test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 6930 5040 3825 563 30750 6375 2340
Buy 65 102 117 981 14 93 194
Sell 36 56 65 541 8 51 107

Test 4) No orders other than Tax of all nations to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food). Ie testing to see what a large amount of gold in the game does.

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 7110 8219 3465 600 111942 9093 2490
Buy 15 17 24 185 3 16 41
Sell 10 11 16 123 2 11 28

Test 5) No orders other than Tax to 100% and 325s of around 25k value (basically food) and all gold in the game sent by all nations to the Long Rider. Ie a large amount of gold in the game and it all under one nation.

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 7650 10996 3510 570 275474 9093 2400
Buy 170 175 329 2617 9 202 520
Sell 88 90 170 1350 5 104 268

Test 6) To emulate a Grudge game: No orders other than all gold in the game gold levels in the game as compare with test 1) (948s 10%).

MARKET PRICES
Product Leather Bronze Steel Mithril Food Timber Mounts
Avail 6840 4500 3465 563 30750 5775 2550
Buy 36 60 67 516 7 51 101
Sell 23 38 42 324 4 32 63

This basically covered the broad spectrum (you can tell I was trained as a scientist uh?!) of possibilities (there are other options of course but I think the results are clear). My reading is as follows:

Tax @100% basically doubles the market if everyone did it (upto half if some players did it) and although has an inherent disadvantage (low loyalties throughout the nations on high tax) is probably okay.

One Banker nation: leads to 4x the market and has minor disadvantage (which can be dealt with by sending slightly less gold). Although it doesn’t give unlimted gold to the DS, it does deal with their very major disadvantage of a (relative to FP) weak economy. (Note it doesn’t, IMO, allow you to get extra product as the raised buy and sell prices preclude this). Note also that almost all cases the increase in market prices is immediately rewarded in that you can natsell at the new value and make back that initial send the very next turn. (Ie no loss of gold effectively and a very big market)

Clint (GM)

···

sent by all 11 other DS nations to the Long Rider. Minor changes to total

Happy to listen to reasoned argument and suggestions on clarification. For example, I looked into your request earlier about the OBN at your request I believe. If I switched off every time someone went a bit "loud" then we'd be out of business a long time ago... :wink:

Clint

···

Not true. But I've obviously coloured your glasses.
"Oh, Brad again, he's going to complain and whine."
Therefore, no matter what words I use, no matter how
many different ways I try to explain my intent, all
you see is "Complain". I don't even think you read my
words, you already know what they are. Good enough
then, no more "complaints" from me.

Brad I said every time I have seen you. As I said at the bottom of my email I was not trying to offend you. I was just using you because you are the player I recognized the most. If I am wrong about your actual playing that is fine. Since I do not keep tabs on you. All I wanted to know if the players who were complaining about the OBN were mostly DS players or if they played both sides equally. Please do not take it as an attack because it wasn't. Seriously.

Serra

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Brad Brunet
  To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 5:05 PM
  Subject: [mepbmlist] OBN DS Screaming

  --- Tara Silva <vanya1@comcast.net> wrote:

  > I am not sure if I agree with you Clint or not. I
  > would like to know how many of these protesting (or
  > should I say screaming players) play mostly evil
  > nations and how many play mostly good. Almost every
  > time I have seen Brad he has played DS is this true
  > for most of these guys.

  Sorry Tara, you're impression here doesn't accurately
  reflect reality. I've played mostly FP in my life
  (2/3 FP) and all my Grudge games as FP (expecting a
  new one next year as DS..). 2 current games are DS as
  I feel like getting around to playing all nations one
  day. One game we've pumped the market and another we
  haven't. I care not either way, and have been on
  record with numerous teams as FP not caring to affect
  the Market. I'm on record in a number of places as
  saying I wouldn't mind/care as a FP if the market went
  crazy and think it would benefit the FP in a number of
  ways that would make it interesting to play it out.
  Imagine the Eothraim or Woodmen running max
  mililtaries and never needing help..? Imagine if the
  FP never sold their 10-20+ thousand Timber a turn but
  instead *used* it..?

  It's very difficult to think that in the vast majority
  of cases this market scheme will *not* benefit the DS
  to the detriment of game balance in general. But I
  was proven wrong when I believed that the DS were
  already winning 2/3 of the games. So maybe I/we are
  overreacting to this as well...? Something to
  consider.

  So while I agree it's 95+% of absolute benefit to the
  DS, and frequent use of the Single Banker Nation will
  skew the game results towards the DS, I'm not
  absolutely convinced that these conclusions are
  "proven" in any way and in general, I react poorly to
  what I perceive to be reactionary and arbitrary
  decisions. I've made enough of those in my life to
  understand the odds of "correctness" are low (in
  principle).

  Regards,

  Brad

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