Opinion needed about the GM denying to correct a player's typo

Hi everyone,

I would like your opinion about a matter, which has been the subject of a long discussion between me and a GM, and concerns whether ME PBM should correct a specific typo made by a player after the turn’s processing.

The situation is like this: I play a Gunboat game. While writing down my orders, and due to sleepiness after a long, working day, I did the mistake of issuing a 615 (assassinate) order instead of 610 (guard). Even though I rechecked the orders, and used the “order chacker” of Overseer, this typo slipped (Overseer does not warn you in this case, even though it warns you in much simplier cases). As a result, I had an agent of mine assassinate my highest agent in the game in a very crucial moment, ruining the game’s balance and its enjoyment. Since correcting that typo would have no impact in the game’s balance (I killed my own char, there were no other characters in the hex issuing any orders related to my agent, etc.), I asked and begged for a post-turn’s processing correction of the mistake. My arguments were the following:

  1. During the last years all the ME PBM players use Overseer, which provides services that the company felt they should be provided in order to facilitate the players’ lives and make the game more enjoyable. One of those services, and surely one of the most important ones, is the “order checker” which warns players for typos in their turns. This feature is considered to be so important by ME PBM, that if I try to send my turn before it is checked by OC, a warning is given by the program. The way the OC works is that it points out and warns you about typos or possible typos be using as a logic the usual pattern of moves. For instance, if I try to recruit 200 HI in a major town, I will get a message that I can recruit more, maybe I want to? If I try to assassinate a character that is not reported in the hex, I will get a message that he’s not there, maybe I’m wrong? And if I issue a “recruit HC” order, Overseer will ask me whether I do have the needed leather and mounts, in case I typed the number of recruits wrong. All the above examples (and there are many more) have nothing to do with certain typos, they are “personal calls” or possible typos. Maybe I want to recruit only 200 HI because of my maintenance issues, and maybe I am risking wasting an assassination order just because I am guessing that the enemy char is present. Also, maybe I’m recruiting more HC than possible with the current leather and mounts stores, because I am planning on buying some before the 400 order. So, maybe I’m making a typo, and maybe I’m making a call. In any case, I am warned about them by the program, because they could be typos.

The GM review of orders system provided by the house rules, as well as the warning system of Overseer (even in cases like the recruitment example, which almost always is a judgment call of the player), show that the policy and ethics of ME PBM is to prevent typos and honest mistakes to be a factor in the strategy game, ruining the game experience and the game’s balance. ME PBM does not want players who have the time to check their orders 100 times to have an advantage over those that have the time to check them only once, just right before bed, after a full day’s work, that’s why the “order checker” exists. That is commendable, since this is a strategy game, and… well, a game!

In my case this policy and protection didn’t work, because Overseer doesn’t warn of an an almost obvious typo like assassinating your own char, even though it warns against possible typos which - in most cases - are not typos but players’ choices, like the examples I mentioned above. Moreover, the GM warning system didn’t work either (and I’m talking about a simple “heads up” like “are you sure you want to kill your 150 agent?”, not making judgments and changing the order in the player’s stead).

In the above argument the GM replied to me that “those players who put more time and effort into their turns should (and will) have an advantage over those that do their orders at the last minute, that’s just the effect of putting in more time with the turns.”

  1. Correcting this obvious typo, against which Overseer does not protect the player, would in no way upset the balance of the game or require a major effort. Indeed, “resurrecting” my assassinated agent would not affect the orders of any other player, it would not give me an strategic advantage against the opponents, it would not negate any of their orders or reward any of mine. Therefore, in my opinion the typo’s correction cost is minimal compared to the mistake’s seriousness and impact on the game’s balance. In other words, correcting the mistake would be in accordance with the fair play principle, the good faith principle, and the balance of the game, which is now going to be disrupted because of a silly typo and not because of strategic moves. To this argument the GM replied that “I’ve seen players kill their entire nations by mistake but we also don’t intefere there if it’s their mistake. Our standard policy that we apply across the board is that if we make the typo we will correct it but if you make the typo we won’t”.

Please note that, contrary to the example of reviving a nation destroyed by a typo, reviving a character in my specific situation would have no impact to the normal course of the game for all the other players.

Following the above replies, the GM denied to correct the typo, and also rejected my suggestions to either put the question to vote among the other players or ask another GM for his/her opinion.

Since there is nothing else to be done, I just wanted to hear from you and listen to your opinion about whether the 615 order instead of 610 order with a friendly character is a possible typo that requires a warning or not, whether the fact that Overseer does not consider it a possible mistake is right, and whether you believe that in the case I described the good faith and fair play principles would require for my typo to be corrected.

Thanks to everyone for any opinion she/he writed down :slight_smile:

Kind regards,
Manolis

It is a bad break but the error cannot be fixed. The 2 characters had to be different nations even if they are both played by you. It was an unfortunate mistake, but must stand. Otherwise, you will no longer be able to send a super low powered game start character to IssPers on a powerful ally to 1) clear the character slot, and 2) work the levels of the challenge of the strong character.

Hello and thanks for the reply,

I do understand that an automatic correction should not take place, I’m talking about a warning. Is there a reason that Overseer does not consider this a possible typo, as it does for instance with recruting less than the PC allows? If the criterion used was always whether the typo could be on purpose, as you say, then no mistake would ever be considered as a typo.

Ouch. That must have hurt.

I remember a team “mate” challenging my army commander instead of the enemy army commander and then complaining about why my army didn’t take part in the upcoming battle which we would’ve won if my army had taken part.

I’m assuming the assassination was an agent of one nation killing a character of another - Gontran can’t kill Kadida, for example. I could be corrected on that.

Presuming my assumption - the game was designed to not only allow that, but to encourage it. Check your Victory Conditions - how often do they include the demise of an “allied” character or the possession of an “allied” PC? In fact, with Friendly relations, your agent got a bonus on the attempt to 615…

The issue is where to draw the line. It’s obvious that you didn’t want to kill such a key character. But it’s also obvious that I wanted to 325 100% of my steel - and not 320 100 pieces of steel…that turn that my nation went bankrupt because I entered the wrong order. This happens all the time, frankly - people issue the wrong order and tragically screw things up - you lost a character, I’ve seen multiple nations die (with the resulting income loss to the company…), etc. Every time your key artifact retrieval company moves to 3213 instead of 3312 - you can’t moan to the company and have them “fix” the “Obvious” typo.

But oh man…who would not be PISSED with that turn result…

bummer dude…you killed your own character via your own mistake. It happens. I have seen my brother challenge out my army commander instead of an enemies, and we ended up losing that fight…it sucks.

i would appeal to your opponents…and not to the GM…the GMs role is to execute the game in a balanced fashion…and how is he to know that is a “typo”…again, no way to know. However, if you appealed to your opponents, and got THEM to say it was ok for the GM to restore your character…then you might get your character restored…maybe. If I were you opponent I’d let you have the character back.

but I have to side with the GM on this one…your mistake. There are too many instances of when I have seen allies kidnap characters of same allegiance to get a quick artifact transfer etc. some think that they can kidnap an ally to prevent him from being assassinated by the opponents etc. So if I were the GM I would let the results stand. If all the opponents on the other side authorized the GM to restore your character…then the GM would have no qualms about correcting the issue…

And yes…be very careful of the 320/325 orders…I’ve seen more eliminations from that fiasco then anything else…

No I wouldn’t the order was fine and could only be done by two different nations.

You were an idiot.:smiley:

Hi Manolis -

bummer result. Especially in Gunboat where you can’t even talk to your allies or enemies about the mistake. The pain will last a long time, but eventually turn to humor. I promise. We’ve all done it, or worse.

Like the other folks on the thread I have to agree that it shouldn’t be changed by the GM. I also agree with you however that it would be nice if Order Checker at least yellow flagged a 615/620 on characters of the same allegiance as an easy double check. But it doesn’t.

I’d also echo folks on the thread that much worse mistakes can happen that eliminate nations. Everyone of us who has played a long time has made these mistakes. 949 orders are notorious for going awry at the last minute and knocking players out. But even routine orders like transferring artifacts or hostages can go dramatically wrong. Hell, I challenged Khuzadrepa with Bain off a popcenter report in my first game because I didn’t know he was a dragon. Talk about pissed off - “what do you mean I couldn’t tell he was a dragon!!?!”

Lastly, like Brad says, it’s also by design that the game allows you offensive actions against ‘allied’ characters. For example, punishing a neutral that changes allegiance at the last minute to the winning team. Or kidnapping an eliminated character to later release him for easy recruitment. Or, heck, in 4th Age where you can actually downgrade your ‘allies’ to Disliked and burn their popcenters.

Anyway - hopefully you can at least put his artifacts to use and recover. I’d encourage you to stick with it despite the loss. How much sweeter the victory will be if you can.

Adam

I have to agree with others. No way to go back. Even though you don’t think anything else would have changed, someone might have done a scry character, scochar, RCT, or LAT on one of the artifacts. That would impact the information they received from their orders.

I also agree that an update to JOVerseer would be nice so that you can get a yellow flag when you try to assassinate or kidnap an allied character.

I couldn’t be bothered to read your arguments past the description of the fact scenario. This is not a “correctable” mistake. Attention to detail pays off.

Good to see you again - where you been Drew?

Hi
I think if you mess up that’s the game. Back in the days if you wrote it wrong you were screwed. There was no checking program so suck it up.

  1. Part of the genius of this game is that Real World lessons can be applied to it and learned from it. The lesson you should have learned was: " Don’t make important decisions when you are tired". You are not an Army officer who’s unit was suddenly attacked and must make instant decisions.

2 .Human error is part of life. There is ample historical precedent. During the American War of Independence the British Cabinet wanted Gen. Howe to move up the Hudson valley and cooperate with Gen. Burgoyne who was moving down it. The responsible Cabinet member wanted a long weekend and he left the order unsigned on his desk. When he returned to the office on Tuesday morning, the packet to New York had already sailed. Did the Voice-of-God contact George III?

  1. The game is for the enjoyment and edification of the players, not the GMs. Opposed to GMs injecting themselves into a game. Who is the GM to replace his judgement for the player’s?

  2. We protect minors from the consequences of their mistakes. Adults are on their own. You are not the only person who wished to infantilize the player base. If you need a nanny, have someone, other than the GM, proof your orders.

In a game by a different moderator, a bug in the program allowed a dropped player to take resources from one of my holdings each turn. After several turns of this event happening, I finally noticed, and asked the moderator for corrections. Their policy was to only correct back for one turn, regardless of whether or not other players were noticing this holding. I asked for an exception, since it would hardly be expected to notice the resource was being unfairly taken. The request was denied.

Why the poster would expect an “error” to be corrected, when it was 100% a player error, is beyond me. Sure, Joverseer could be programmed to notice such a problem (and probably will be in a future incarnation), but Joverseer is a free game AID, not something designed to notice every possible problem. It’s no wonder that nobody backed the poster in the poll. Moderators set up regulations for fixing errors, and these have to be adhered to.

Hi Guys,

I think that the consesus of this poll/discussion is to ask the programmer to check and see that, 1) if checking that you are assassinating and ally/team character is possible and 2) If so to implement a yellow warning.

I suspect that there could be times where you might want to do this rather than retire a character???

Dean

Right now, the “new XML” loses 75% of the information that is currently parsed from the pdf by the regular JOverseer. Order Checker is low on the priority list. I am one of the majority of players who do not use it at all. This thread is an aberration, as every response past the poster clearly shows. 320 or 325? 610 or 615? If you want a wireless, invisible, automatic, mind-reading magic-sword-and-dragon computer application - please make sure you’re always on the other team~!!!

Brad

A mention by one person is not a consensus. this should be a business decision, not a ‘fairness’ one.

Fairness, by its nature, is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. The poll’s author was given at least three ways to address his problem. All involved a change in his behavior. Was that unfair? Are we requiring to much from a college graduate of above-average intelligence?

Over the years the company has provided a number of ‘services’ to the players. Can a revenue increase be attributed to any particular one? In the year 2003, Clint said that 700 persons played this game. If fewer than 700 play it now we may conclude that minor tweaks, on the margin, are not revenue producers.

You propose an expenditure of time/effort/money/maintenance. How much will it cost? How much revenue will it generate? Is the poll’s author privately, behind-the-scenes, lobbying for this? If so, tell him you will do it if he contributes 300 quid for the project.

It comes down to usability/convenience. I suspect this check would be a relatively easy thing to add, assuming you have an update to he program scheduled to come out anyway.

A larger update, one that would be a significant coding hurdle, would be getting the program to properly track artifacts. Every team in every game makes their own spreadsheet to track names, numbers, and locations of artifacts, and JOverseer retains none of that information. That would be a feature that every player would use and use gladly, but it represents quite a few hours of coding, and on that point the company would definitely have to think of cost versus usability.

There are no updates. There is no development. Keep paying and playing…until it just disappears one day.

Hi Veo,

Your response is not a true reflection of reality. The JOverseer and the Orderchecker started as two separate player generated utilities which ME took over support for, and development of, to provider better tools for results viewing and order writing than previously existed (MEOW and AUTOMAGIC).

One of the major developments were to make these two applications ONE, in the sense that JOverseer and the order checker actually used the same code to check the information. This removed a lot of inconsistencies that existed between the two systems.

That upgrade was very visible to the players as it involved changes to the tools that players use.

Current programming effort is going into moving the 1650 and Fourth Age games off of the Macs and onto PCs. If this change does not happen the games will stop running.

The players don’t ‘see’ this effort so much as it is just going into an effort to reproduce the status quo of keeping the games running.

The players involved in the beta test 1650 game will be aware of the efforts.

However, all this effort will give us the new ability to tweak/change/modify 1650/4th age games. At the moment that is only possible with the Kinstrife scenario which has always been PC based.

So there is a lot of effort development going into keeping ME running.

All the Best,
Dean