First off I really enjoy the gunboat games, sorry to see 95 end so soon. But the main thing I like about it is the so called fog of war as you aren’t getting your allies turn and making plans each and every turn, so this brings me to a problem !!
Clint updates each week who is out on each side in the gunboat games – why can’t we wait say 5 turns or something like that before he updates who is out. I will try to explain : Say for exmple I am playing the Arthedain and am pounding the WK, am creating armies and sending them towards him , but then an update comes out and the WK has dropped/knocked out – this now gives me the opportunity to change my whole game and orders for that turn by maybe trying to send emmies into his remaining pop and would definately make me take those big armies i would have left and move them towards say Rhudaur, when he could have had another couple of turns with me trying to finish off WK pop centers. Not to mention this would give the other nation that is playing with the WK – Dark Lts a chance to try and grab some of those pop center with emmies !!
Reason why I mention this is cause it happened in a game and I was able to change things around to then cause another enemy nation some grief instead of trying to finish this now dead nation off and to help out an ally who is pressured by a still living enemy nation !! Who knows how many more turns I would have wasted on this dead nation !!
maybe even let the one side know there ally is out right away and then wait 5 turns before putting it on a gunboat update, Really can’t say much more without giving away the game.
The main reason why I brought this up, with the example of the WK - Arthedain above, I would have wasted at least 2 to 4 more turns against the WK if I didn’t know he was out, instead of moving against rhudaur right away, maybe getting rhuduar out or him losing something to me, when he wouldn’t have for maybe 4 turns !!
I can explain better when I am able to actully talk about it when the game ends !! But will give me more ammo so to speak if I wind up causing the other enemy nation problems , which I know I will earlier then I was going to and if I ransack that now dead nation before the other side !! Both of the above which shouldn’t and wouldn’t have happened if didn’t know about him/her being out from the updates !!
With GB games it’s harder to judge when a nation is out. In individual and also Grudge games you often have access to all of your side’s turns so can judge things more accurately. It’s all down to how much fog of war is “right” for the game, too little and it’s becomes clock-work, too much and it’s a random game of chance.
“Ambigous environment” was one of the seven alien concepts in the Stassun/Feild game. Harley has eroded that concept.
No, you do not create a random game by darkening the room. It is the nature of military command that decisions must be made quickly with inadequate and incorrect information. Some persons show a flair for that and some persons do not. GSI catered to the former and Harley caters to the later.
Persons who lack that particular flair always want more information so that they can make an ‘informed decision’. If both commanders have that mindset no harm is done. If only one commander has that mindset he is likely to discover that Rommel has already gone around his flank and is rolling up his LOC.
Not true on the GB games to judge when a nation is out as we get a weekly update about all the gunboats and it lists what nation is out. That was the main reason why I had asked that maybe there should be a 5 turn wait to listing an out nation to add more to the fog of war or the so called old days when everything was done by snail mail – Don’t get me wrong I love the gunboat type games, but found myself with a particular nation changing every order I was gonna issue to a whole different set of orders as the nation I was attacking I discovered was now out.
This then created, to me at least, an unfair advantage as I was now going offensive against another nation way sooner then I would and am doing other orders to get some of those pop centers from the out nation. Maybe the side that the out nation should be notified right away if they want to get some of those pop centers and then something like 5 turns later or when the turn comes around where we can send out diplo’s it is then updated on the weekly GB update page by Harly.
So, guys, do we need to change anything here? If you want fog of war then we can do that, if players play that form of game. If not then we can’t.
I’m easy.
Clint (GM)
As a player I don’t mind knowing if a nation is deceased or not. If they are out then usually it means I’ll move on other nations more quickly, and occasionally take the spoils of war, but I’m ambivalent.
Clint, I don’t care either way – was mainly bringing it up, because of what you just stated as the player above – you can now turn your attentions towards another nation, when this wouldn’t have been the case if wasn’t reported. So mainly thought this was supposed to bring back the snail mail method of playing and we wouldn’t have gotten a report of who is in or who is out.
Overall, I’d have to say stop publishing the nation pairings and dead nations in Gunboats, period. When my Cardolan/Sinda pairing in Game 95 discovered we eliminated the WK the previous turn BEFORE our next Gunboat turn was due, we were able to turn around immediately and switch focus. Take a look at the game 95 map I put on the Game 95 thread - all that Cardolan was able to accomplish in the south was a result of a 3 turn head start thanks to that knowledge.
I benefited from the policy (and being online enough to make the information timely…) in this one game, but from an Objective player’s perspective, I don’t think it should be available for Gunboat games.
Agree with the others. Cease publishing the names of (GB or otherwise) players and the status of their nations. It was just one more element in the ‘dumb down’ of the game. What separated this game from its also-rans? It was the challenges offered. In trying to reach a mass audience you eroded the challenges.
This was main reason why I brought it up and cause of the same thing, I also got the drop nation and thus changed my whole turn to start slamming another nation when I might not have gotten around to it for at least a minumum of three turns, maybe more. So to be fair to the other side I wouldn’t want them published either or at least 5 turns after a nation is out.
Everything in this thread so far has revolved around the enemy knowing which nations are out of the game. What about the benefits/detriments of knowing which nations on your own team are out? While a nation is likely to perform some sort of intelligence gathering regarding a nation they are fighting, it’s not nearly as likely for an ally (I use ther term “ally” loosely in this context) to do the same.
In other words, in addition to looking at what the enemy alliance learns from the posting of dropped/dead nations of their enemy, don’t forget what is also learned by the friendly alliance. For example ,in the past I have chosen to call for a vote to concede after I found out that only two people (four nations) remained on my side. I suppose that the purists among us would say that I should continue to force a bug hunt, even though I didn’t know I was becoming the bug. I could have used resources to determine the status of my eliminated allies, but quite frankly I had my hands full with the enemy.
That being said, I generally think it’s a bad idea to post dropped/dead nations so soon after they are out of the game, but I do think it serves a purpose. Perhaps an alternative to publicly posting which nations are eliminated would be to send emails to alliance members when a nation is eliminated. Such as, “Dear Gamer, one of the nations in your alliance has been eliminated. Your alliance now consists of (n-1) nations.” That way friendly players get something to help them make monetary decisions regarding game continuation. As for the enemy alliance, I think they should have to find out for themselves.
At present I don’t have any plans to alter the code in this manner. So far I’ve got some players asking for the duos to be posted and some not. So there’s no clear indication either way at present, so I’ll leave it the way the rules are at present.
Thanks for your time guys, as always your feedback is appreciated.
IIRC, the turn email has this info already… just leave out the enemy pairings
If you aren’t going to tell people that their side is falling apart, then a hard and fast victory condition (e.g. better than 2:1 in nations) is necessary IMO.
No offence intended, but not really any of your business Ed. See the yahoolist for others interested. As always if you guys want a variant I’m happy to oblige. I’ve got no personal agenda here, as always, just what you want if we can do it I’ll do. That includes no changes if that’s what you want and I don’t see enough requests for changes from my various correpspondence and list.
I’m easy either way (saves us work NOT to do it btw, so possibly slightly biased to not have to do it - note it was implemented at player request in the first place!)
Note there are hard and fast Victory conditions like you’ve mentioned, but we also allow players to make a poll.
If you want fog of war then we can do that, if players play that form of game. If not then we can’t.
See the yahoolist for others interested. As always if you guys want a variant I’m happy to oblige. I’ve got no personal agenda here, as always, just what you want if we can do it I’ll do. That includes no changes if that’s what you want and I don’t see enough requests for changes from my various correpspondence and list.