Very Sad

G. W. Tallen wrote:

And no, Gavin, I am not a Republican. I know a great many clear-thinking
Democrats who were embarassed and disgusted by the actions of their party
and their candidate. Partisanship must sometimes yield to common sense.

Mr Tallen, I apologise for tarnishing you with the epithet "Republican".
Your comments seemed to come directly from GOP Central Office, hence my
error.

I do not lecture Europeans on your forms or processes of government, and
have little patience with criticisms of our own from 'across the pond'.

Regretably this restraint is not followed by many of your fellow countrymen
who seem to revel in telling the rest of the world "how it should be" while
ignoring problems in their own backyards. May I suggest, however, that
acquiring a little patience with our criticisms would be a good thing? With
luck, it would spread.... (As a Brit living in France near the Swiss border,
I get the worst of all worlds: I read US comments attacking the EU as
protectionist, US criticism of the various UN and affiliated organisations,
and then the French demonstrating smug superiority over the Americans whilst
eating at MacDo and wearing Nikes...)

Please notice I did not mention the death penalty in that list. (Ducks for
cover.) :slight_smile:

Gavin

G. W. Tallen wrote:

> Oh stop your sniveling. You can't change election law, recount votes,

or

> re-vote, until you win, regardless of how sanctimonious you are about

the

> superiority of your candidate. The rule of law, rather than the bullet

and

> the bayonet, is what sets America apart from much of the world.

Ah yes:

1 Personal attack in the guise of argument.

2 You assume that the law was followed and that other laws were not

broken.

In Europe we saw little evidence for the former and a lot for the latter.

3 What sets the US apart from the world is its overfondness for litigation
per se rather than any actual respect for the law.

I can only presume you're a Republican.

Gavin

RD: add:

4) Not to mention breathtakingly arrogant and factually incorrect. In how
many other countries can anybody walk into a shop and buy guns and
ammuntion, not to mention bladed weapons? Every freeborn citizen is
entitled to bear arms - this is a truly barbaric principle which goes back
to the Dark Ages. Not ruled by the bullet and the bayonet? You certainly
appear be to be ruled by the guys who MAKE the bullets.

Richard.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

>Can we petition Harlequin to make this a moderated
>group? Thank you.

This would be up to the players really - personally I think that when things
get quiet the odd email about other things (cultural differences between the
various countries etc) is a good thing but as this is intended for players
then if there is enough player-power I am happy to go with the flow.

Clint

I am sure your girdlfriend would not be a fan of that Henning - and I've met
her... :slight_smile:

Clint

···

> But for me, I'd still rather have
> freedom of speech, than have Clint dressed as Aunt Maud.
I would still love to see clint dressed like Aunt Maud...:wink:

Henning

Yes, Clint, but surely you knew how easily riled our American friends

become

when the joke is at their expense...? :slight_smile:

Everyone has their own personal buttons - game 23 uh Gavin?! :slight_smile: (I am
aware of some my own weaknesses btw).

However, I resisted the temptation to pick up the religion crumb: my views

on religion would be way too

inflammatory

Yes please steer clear from religion at least for a year and everyone gets
to know each other a little bit better. In normal life I find that people
start hitting brick walls and that's old friends who have known each other
for years - not passing aquaintances. Try the various lists on religion for
that one please.

Clint

Fellas,

Ok. Now I feel I must jump in an add my thoughts to this chain.

Most wars are fought becuase of religious or economic reasons. That being

said,

what we are really saying is that people tend to fight for their own
self-interest. If one believes in God, and one believes that what one

does

could please such a being-- one would willingly do so (seems to make

sense) The

self-interest part of the economic motivation seems self-expalanatory.

However,

many people go a step further saying, in fact:

    1. Most wars are fought over religion.

    2. Therefore, religion is a bad thing.

    3. So, we should get rid of religion.

Very few people say,

    1. Most wars are fought for economic reasons

    2. Therefore, economics are a bad things.

    3. So, we should get rid of eceonomics

I wonder why this is?
My point is, PEOPLE WILL FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN SELF-INTEREST. And certain

things,

like religion, and love of country, arouse strong emotions. However, to

decry

something just because it arouses strong emotion is, I think, in error.

Bobarian--History teacher and interested observer.

RD: You can't get rid of economics. People need food, water and shelter
from the elements as a minimum. Deprive them of these, and they will move,
sometimes violently, to wherever else they can get them. As people become
technologically more advanced, so their needs (or perceived needs) rise.
They will then fight not only for land on which to grow crops, but for
things like oil. Witness the western response when Saddan invaded Kuwait.

I wouldn't suggest for one moment that we get rid of religion. What I would
suggest is, that each person who professes a particular religion should
stick to the basic principles, be open-minded enough to allow people of
different persuasions to go their own way, and NOT be misled by bigots who
use violence to kill or convert opponents.

If you look at the basic principles of any of the world's great religions
(in no particular order): Christianity, Mohammedism, Buddhism, Hinduism - I
think you will find they all preach pretty much the same message: love your
God, love your fellow man. Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of them
advocate killing people who have different opinions, or even forcible
conversions.

The growing Pagan community seem to have it right when they say, 'all the
gods are one God.' In other words it doesn't matter whether you call Him
God, Allah, Jehovah, Zeus or whatever; if you believe in one almighty being,
you believe in the same principle. If you follow one particular path to
your god, and your neighbour goes a different way to his, you may well be
following different routes to the same end.

I'd rather believe that, than that any one sect was right and everybody else
was wrong and doomed to eternal hellfire.

Richard.

Middle Earth PBM Games wrote:

Everyone has their own personal buttons - game 23 uh Gavin?! :slight_smile: (I am
aware of some my own weaknesses btw).

Actually, game 22 would, at the right moment, have been even better. :slight_smile:

Now that I come to think of it, the parallels between game 23 and Florida
are quite striking... <giggle>

Both games now leave me in neutral, though.

Gavin

Richard John Devereux wrote:

The growing Pagan community seem to have it right when they say, 'all the
gods are one God.' In other words it doesn't matter whether you call Him
God, Allah, Jehovah, Zeus or whatever; if you believe in one almighty being,
you believe in the same principle. If you follow one particular path to
your god, and your neighbour goes a different way to his, you may well be
following different routes to the same end.

Richard, you might like to read "The Holographic Universe" by Michael
Talbot. Even if you don't accept his theories, you'll never look at the
world around you the same way again.

Gavin

Richard John Devereux wrote:

Every freeborn citizen is
entitled to bear arms - this is a truly barbaric principle which goes back
to the Dark Ages. Not ruled by the bullet and the bayonet? You certainly
appear be to be ruled by the guys who MAKE the bullets.

I missed that. Good catch.

Gavin

Apology accepted. GOP Central, however, whoever they are, have never
approached me, I do all my liberal-baiting for free.

I certainly am not proud of ALL my countrymen, or all my country's
actions -- particularly in the last eight years. But our system at its
worst still shows the capacity for peaceful change -- as do our friends in
Western Europe. Sometimes even change for the better, which is what I see
now. Sorry if you don't agree.

I think I'll pass on the death penalty for now. We might find we agree, and
disappoint the audience. Cheers!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Gavinwj <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

G. W. Tallen wrote:

> And no, Gavin, I am not a Republican. I know a great many

clear-thinking

> Democrats who were embarassed and disgusted by the actions of their

party

> and their candidate. Partisanship must sometimes yield to common sense.

Mr Tallen, I apologise for tarnishing you with the epithet "Republican".
Your comments seemed to come directly from GOP Central Office, hence my
error.

> I do not lecture Europeans on your forms or processes of government, and
> have little patience with criticisms of our own from 'across the pond'.

Regretably this restraint is not followed by many of your fellow

countrymen

who seem to revel in telling the rest of the world "how it should be"

while

ignoring problems in their own backyards. May I suggest, however, that
acquiring a little patience with our criticisms would be a good thing?

With

luck, it would spread.... (As a Brit living in France near the Swiss

border,

I get the worst of all worlds: I read US comments attacking the EU as
protectionist, US criticism of the various UN and affiliated

organisations,

and then the French demonstrating smug superiority over the Americans

whilst

eating at MacDo and wearing Nikes...)

Please notice I did not mention the death penalty in that list. (Ducks for
cover.) :slight_smile:

Gavin

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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--- "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >
The thought police are coming to your place as soon

as they're through with
me..... Good on ya, I see no harm in a spirited and
frank exchange of
views, and when a thread is so clearly ID'd (e.g.
'Lighthouse story') it is
easily avoided by those who are not interested.

I second that. Making sure its stays as lighthouse
story will
a) allow everyone to remember clint who started this,
and
b) allow people to delete without reading it (expect
for those on daily digest), and
c) allow people to talk to each other.

A mind is like a parachute. it doesn't work unless it
it open.

thanks
din

p.s anyone know who wrote 'beggars in spain', and if
she has produced her own book ? I've tracked down
three of her stories (all in general sci-fi books with
stories of other authors), but I've heard she did
more.
I'm impressed with her treatment of human reaction to
high-tech changes.

···

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://invites.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Invites
- Creating invitations could never be easier!

Here is Brasil...

We could discuss more on this "nuclear" topic on pvt , if you'd like to.

I'd just like to quote a bit from your email, but i don't think i will keep replyin' to the list,
ok ?

"weapons which averted war, preserved freedom, and contributed
to the utter defeat of the main antagonist "

What is see is:

Weapons that already killed LOTS of people, so their deaths can be an example and thus making them a
powerful "war avertion tool".
Weapons that preserved the American (or whoever might be using them) freedom, over the freedom of
another folk.
Weapons that contributed to the utter defeat of the main antagonist in the World War II, and
nowadays are used to make the quick-chose "main antagonists" cream their pants.

There's a chance that you even agree with what i've just said, and if you do and still are
pro-nuclear, i am really sorry .

Will
Further comments may be addressed to : will@ism.com.br
and if it's just a quick flame : UIN 1686272 (nickname Will)

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@worldnet.att.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

Where is 'here'? Surely it is not a country that ever sheltered behind the
shield of American nuclear deterrence? Or American soldiers? There are a
few of those. No offense intended.

I like nuclear weapons, they have proven far more benign than AK-47's in my
lifetime: -- weapons which averted war, preserved freedom, and contributed
to the utter defeat of the main antagonist -- without ever being used. I
think Sun Tzu would love them.

If I could change my nation's economic policy, or (recent) penchant for
flinging bombs about the world to influence domestic opinion polls -- I
would.

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilson Reis <will@ism.com.br>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

> Oh... I am very happy that we have bullets and laws over here. It look
better than nuclear weapons
> and economical rape on other countries.
>
> No offense intended, believe it or not.
> Will
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story
>
>
> > G. W. Tallen wrote:
> >
> > > Oh stop your sniveling. You can't change election law, recount votes,
or
> > > re-vote, until you win, regardless of how sanctimonious you are about
the
> > > superiority of your candidate. The rule of law, rather than the
bullet and
> > > the bayonet, is what sets America apart from much of the world.
> >
> > Ah yes:
> >
> > 1 Personal attack in the guise of argument.
> >
> > 2 You assume that the law was followed and that other laws were not
broken.
> > In Europe we saw little evidence for the former and a lot for the
latter.
> >
> > 3 What sets the US apart from the world is its overfondness for
litigation
> > per se rather than any actual respect for the law.
> >
> > I can only presume you're a Republican.
> >
> > Gavin
> >
> >
> >
> > Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> > To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> > http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Richard,
You're right, we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Best send the
Irish, Serbs, Russians, Basques, Chechens, Palestinians, Israelis, Nazis,
fascists, Communists, Hezbollah, Khmer Rouge, the ANC and the PLA onto our
blood-washed streets to civilize us.

But tell them to come prepared, we're better shots than any of them. :slight_smile:

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

> G. W. Tallen wrote:
>
> > Oh stop your sniveling. You can't change election law, recount votes,
or
> > re-vote, until you win, regardless of how sanctimonious you are about
the
> > superiority of your candidate. The rule of law, rather than the

bullet

and
> > the bayonet, is what sets America apart from much of the world.
>
> Ah yes:
>
> 1 Personal attack in the guise of argument.
>
> 2 You assume that the law was followed and that other laws were not
broken.
> In Europe we saw little evidence for the former and a lot for the

latter.

>
> 3 What sets the US apart from the world is its overfondness for

litigation

> per se rather than any actual respect for the law.
>
> I can only presume you're a Republican.
>
> Gavin

RD: add:

4) Not to mention breathtakingly arrogant and factually incorrect. In how
many other countries can anybody walk into a shop and buy guns and
ammuntion, not to mention bladed weapons? Every freeborn citizen is
entitled to bear arms - this is a truly barbaric principle which goes back
to the Dark Ages. Not ruled by the bullet and the bayonet? You certainly
appear be to be ruled by the guys who MAKE the bullets.

Richard.

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

--- "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >
Richard,

You're right, we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty
barbarians. Best send the
Irish, Serbs, Russians, Basques, Chechens,
Palestinians, Israelis, Nazis,
fascists, Communists, Hezbollah, Khmer Rouge, the
ANC and the PLA onto our
blood-washed streets to civilize us.

But tell them to come prepared, we're better shots
than any of them. :slight_smile:

count me out. I want to stay back home and see what we
will call this decade. The naughties come to mind.

thanks
din

···

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://invites.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Invites
- Creating invitations could never be easier!

I just wanted to see you dressed up like that, nothing else was intended

Henning

···

from my side. So shame on you and your dirty mind :wink:

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Middle Earth PBM Games [mailto:me@MiddleEarthGames.com]
Sendt: 15. februar 2001 19:50
Til: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

I am sure your girdlfriend would not be a fan of that Henning -
and I've met
her... :slight_smile:

Clint
> > But for me, I'd still rather have
> > freedom of speech, than have Clint dressed as Aunt Maud.
> I would still love to see clint dressed like Aunt Maud...:wink:
>
> Henning

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

Richard,
You're right, we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Best send the
Irish, Serbs, Russians, Basques, Chechens, Palestinians, Israelis, Nazis,
fascists, Communists, Hezbollah, Khmer Rouge, the ANC and the PLA onto our
blood-washed streets to civilize us.

But tell them to come prepared, we're better shots than any of them. :slight_smile:

RD: All these guys are flooding OUR country seeking asylum! Hmmmm.....
maybe you have got the right idea, shoot the lot of 'em.

Richard.

From: Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

>
> From: "Gavinwj" <gavinwj@compuserve.com>
> To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story
>
>
> > G. W. Tallen wrote:
> >
> > > Oh stop your sniveling. You can't change election law, recount

votes,

> or
> > > re-vote, until you win, regardless of how sanctimonious you are

about

> the
> > > superiority of your candidate. The rule of law, rather than the
bullet
> and
> > > the bayonet, is what sets America apart from much of the world.
> >
> > Ah yes:
> >
> > 1 Personal attack in the guise of argument.
> >
> > 2 You assume that the law was followed and that other laws were not
> broken.
> > In Europe we saw little evidence for the former and a lot for the
latter.
> >
> > 3 What sets the US apart from the world is its overfondness for
litigation
> > per se rather than any actual respect for the law.
> >
> > I can only presume you're a Republican.
> >
> > Gavin
>
> RD: add:
>
> 4) Not to mention breathtakingly arrogant and factually incorrect. In

how

> many other countries can anybody walk into a shop and buy guns and
> ammuntion, not to mention bladed weapons? Every freeborn citizen is
> entitled to bear arms - this is a truly barbaric principle which goes

back

> to the Dark Ages. Not ruled by the bullet and the bayonet? You

certainly

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "G. W. Tallen" <btallen@worldnet.att.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> appear be to be ruled by the guys who MAKE the bullets.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
> Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
> To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
> http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>
>

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
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http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

No problem, send them over any Saturday night.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard John Devereux <devereux@lineone.net>
To: <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

> Richard,
> You're right, we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Best send

the

> Irish, Serbs, Russians, Basques, Chechens, Palestinians, Israelis,

Nazis,

> fascists, Communists, Hezbollah, Khmer Rouge, the ANC and the PLA onto

our

> blood-washed streets to civilize us.
>
> But tell them to come prepared, we're better shots than any of them.

:slight_smile:

RD: All these guys are flooding OUR country seeking asylum! Hmmmm.....
maybe you have got the right idea, shoot the lot of 'em.

Richard.

I can’t comment about the other places but I remember reading a few year’s ago that there were more murders per thousand of the population in Washington DC than there were in Northern Ireland at any time during the 70s & 80s

Let’s not even start on the American (and British, admittedly) sponsored Israelis.

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
G. W. Tallen

To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 3:17 AM

Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

`Richard,
You’re right, we’re all a bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Best send the
Irish, Serbs, Russians, Basques, Chechens, Palestinians, Israelis, Nazis,
fascists, Communists, Hezbollah, Khmer Rouge, the ANC and the PLA onto our
blood-washed streets to civilize us.

But tell them to come prepared, we’re better shots than any of them. :slight_smile:

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard John Devereux devereux@lineone.net
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

----- Original Message -----
From: “Gavinwj” gavinwj@compuserve.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: SV: [mepbmlist] Re: Lighthouse story

G. W. Tallen wrote:

Oh stop your sniveling. You can’t change election law, recount votes,
or

re-vote, until you win, regardless of how sanctimonious you are about
the

superiority of your candidate. The rule of law, rather than the
bullet
and

the bayonet, is what sets America apart from much of the world.

Ah yes:

1 Personal attack in the guise of argument.

2 You assume that the law was followed and that other laws were not
broken.
In Europe we saw little evidence for the former and a lot for the
latter.

3 What sets the US apart from the world is its overfondness for
litigation

per se rather than any actual respect for the law.

I can only presume you’re a Republican.

Gavin

RD: add:

  1. Not to mention breathtakingly arrogant and factually incorrect. In how
    many other countries can anybody walk into a shop and buy guns and
    ammuntion, not to mention bladed weapons? Every freeborn citizen is
    entitled to bear arms - this is a truly barbaric principle which goes back
    to the Dark Ages. Not ruled by the bullet and the bayonet? You certainly
    appear be to be ruled by the guys who MAKE the bullets.

Richard.

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games
To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com
http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com

`

Middle Earth PBM List - Middle Earth and Harlequin Games To Unsubscribe:www.egroups.com [http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com](http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com)

At long last, Game 24 begins. I'm looking to "chat" with any DS and would
love to discuss the future of Middle Earth with all neutrals.
Good day,
The Sylvans