Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days...
Have things changed _that_ much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Hi
Here's some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than 12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can't remember the last time one run either. So Grudge hasn't gone, it's moved onto KS games mostly with some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days...
Have things changed _that_ much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
------------------------------------
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan <bshushan@earthlink.net>
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Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
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···
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
···
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
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Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
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Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
···
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
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Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
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Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
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(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
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One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12...
We do, some "Grudge" teams are even players running all the nations. We generally give a discount for such btw! 
Having done such a game myself a few times it's hard work but very satisfying...
Clint
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Do I get a referral discount if people start running 1-man grudge teams? Just drumming up business for you Clint.
b (Ever Helpful)
···
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:45 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly
cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player
to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without
requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be
able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra
effort without needing to find 12…
We do, some “Grudge” teams are even players running all the
nations. We generally give a discount for such btw! Having done
such a game myself a few times it’s hard work but very satisfying…
Clint
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: http://www.middleearthgames.comwww.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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Maybe, I have a few players running 1 man grudge games as it is, but we generally offer a large discount (sometimes upto 33% off) .
Clint
Do I get a referral discount if people start running 1-man grudge teams? Just drumming up business for you Clint.
b (Ever Helpful)
From: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:45 PM
To: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?>One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly
>cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player
>to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without
>requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be
>able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra
>effort without needing to find 12...
We do, some "Grudge" teams are even players running all the
nations. We generally give a discount for such btw! :) Having done
such a game myself a few times it's hard work but very satisfying...
Clint
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
------------------------------------
Posted by: ME Games Ltd <me@middleearthgames.com>
------------------------------------
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···
At 03:55 05/09/2017, you wrote:
So I’ll take 17%, and you’ll still make a profit!
And we know the “1-man grudge” types. There’s a song title in there somewhere…
Don’t worry, you-no-who. No names, no names.
b
···
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:58 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Maybe, I have a few players running 1 man grudge
games as it is, but we generally offer a large
discount (sometimes upto 33% off) .
Clint
At 03:55 05/09/2017, you wrote:
Do I get a referral discount if people start
running 1-man grudge teams? Just drumming up business for you Clint.
b (Ever Helpful)
From: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.comME Games
Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:45 PM
To: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly
cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player
to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without
requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be
able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra
effort without needing to find 12…
We do, some “Grudge” teams are even players running all the
nations. We generally give a discount for such btw! :) Having done
such a game myself a few times it’s hard work but very satisfying…
Clint
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: http://www.middleearthgames.comwww.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
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No I don't think so... you might recommend yourself and get 50%... LOL
No profit for us running that game I would suspect.
Clint
So Iâll take 17%, and youâll still make a profit!
And we know the â1-man grudgeâ types. Thereâs a song title in there somewhere
<
Donât worry, you-no-who. No names, no names.b
From: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:58 PM
To: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?Maybe, I have a few players running 1 man grudge
games as it is, but we generally offer a large
discount (sometimes upto 33% off) .Clint
>
>Do I get a referral discount if people start
>running 1-man grudge teams?ÃÂ Just drumming up business for you Clint.
>
>b (Ever Helpful)
>
>From: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>ME Games
>Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
>Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:45 PM
>To: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
>
> >One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly
>
> >cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player
>
> >to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without
>
> >requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be
>
> >able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra
>
> >effort without needing to find 12...
>
>We do, some "Grudge" teams are even players running all the
>
>nations.ÃÂ We generally give a discount for such btw! :)ÃÂ Having done
>
>such a game myself a few times it's hard work but very satisfying...
>
>Clint
>
>Middle Earth Games Ltd
>
>Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
>
>Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
>
>Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
>
>Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
>
>UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
>
>(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Posted by: ME Games Ltd <me@middleearthgames.com>
>
>------------------------------------
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Middle Earth Games Ltd
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Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
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Posted by: ME Games Ltd <me@middleearthgames.com>
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(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
···
At 04:02 05/09/2017, you wrote:
At 03:55 05/09/2017, you wrote:
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! 
[Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
···
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
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Moi? Jamais!
As for those margins…
I demand an audit!
Didn’t you guys go public recently?
b
···
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:06 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
No I don’t think so… you might recommend yourself and get 50%… LOL
No profit for us running that game I would suspect.
Clint
At 04:02 05/09/2017, you wrote:
So Iâll take 17%, and youâll still make a profit!
And we know the â1-man grudgeâ
types. Thereâs a song title in there somewhere
<
Donât worry, you-no-who. No names, no names.
b
From: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.comME Games
Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:58 PM
To: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Maybe, I have a few players running 1 man grudge
games as it is, but we generally offer a large
discount (sometimes upto 33% off) .
Clint
At 03:55 05/09/2017, you wrote:
Do I get a referral discount if people start
running 1-man grudge teams?ÃÂ Just drumming up business for you Clint.
b (Ever Helpful)
From: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.comME Games
Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 7:45 PM
To: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly
cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player
to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without
requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be
able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra
effort without needing to find 12…
We do, some “Grudge” teams are even players running all the
nations.ÃÂ We generally give a discount for such btw! :)ÃÂ Having done
such a game myself a few times it’s hard work but very satisfying…
Clint
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: http://www.middleearthgames.comwww.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
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Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
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PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
···
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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AOL.
Yep. Good times.
Brad
···
On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com wrote:
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
LOL Yes, I have AOL for my email, never bothered to change, but this is sent from my tablet - my one concession to modern technology, in which I have a 4G data per month plan - I don’t own a cell phone, my desktop computer at home no longer connects to the web (I use the computer at the public library though) and my old analog TV is just used for VHS and DVS playing, no cable, no DirectTV, no FIOS, nothing. I have a hard-wired land line phone. 
Been playing since game 3 of 1650, the first non-playtest game run by GSI, which I won as the Fire King on a game turn in the low 70s when my army of over 12k troops (about 2/3s of which were conjured hordes) overran the main army of the Dwarves, last holdout of the Free Peoples, killing several great characters. I collected many starting capitals into my emoire, from the Noldo in the far NW to the Easterlings in the far SE. I know the Long Rider was still in at the end, and I think the Dark Lieutenants were as well, but nobody else. The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
Anyway, I was hooked, been playing almost continuously since… - E3
···
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
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I suspect that when we get the PRS up again that it will encourage things but I think the 12 team (or 6x2or whatever versions) is going to be hard ot get back.
Clint
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, Iâm taunting!  [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, Iâm taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good olâ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage émigrés to conttinents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere not  allowwed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi errr Aussies. I owe one to âem for RKG (well, someone ellse does, but, again, I wonât name names just settle scorees!).
b (Banging the Drum just not Slowly)
From: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?Counterpoint - many, if not most "individual" games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn't worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the "elite machine teams" no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don't play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I'd have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12...
Ernie III, playing since forever...
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
To: mepbmlist <mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
Iâm enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. Iâd be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member . but well . umm ).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!!!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you canât find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I wonât name names donât want to feed thhe animals).
Come on folks form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names .
b
From: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: <mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com>mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?Hi
Here's some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can't remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn't gone, it's moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
>Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
>
>Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
>easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days...
>
>Have things changed _that_ much in six years?
>
>b (All Comers Welcome)
>
>------------------------------------
>Posted by: Benjamin Shushan <<mailto:bshushan@earthlink.net>bshushan@earthlink.net>
>------------------------------------
>
>Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
>To Unsubscribe: <http://www.yahoogroups.com>http://www.yahoogroups.com
>Website: <http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com>http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>---
>This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
><http://www.avg.com>http://www.avg.com
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <<http://www.middleearthgames.com%3ewww.middleearthgames.com>http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: <<mailto:me@middleearthgames.com%3eme@middleearthgames.com?>mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
------------------------------------
Posted by: ME Games Ltd <<mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com>
------------------------------------
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Email: <mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
···
At 04:12 05/09/2017, you wrote:
-----Original Message-----
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
I’m on Jihad! “Crusade” is outdated (and historically less effective).
Good to know PRS is coming back… Do you have results going back to GSI? That’d help for accuracy. I looked them over some months back and saw some anomalies. Some “Cliff” guy kept popping up….
b
···
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 8:37 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
I suspect that when we get the PRS up again that
it will encourage things but I think the 12 team
(or 6x2or whatever versions) is going to be hard ot get back.
Clint
At 04:12 05/09/2017, you wrote:
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat
out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, Iâm taunting!  [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes,
Iâm taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good olâ days of the World
Championships? Can we have a do-over on that
(nations represented by people of questionable
lineage émigrés to conttinents to the far
southern and eastern hemisphere not Â
allowwed)? Still stinging from that
ass-kicking by the Convi errr Aussies. I owe
one to âem for RKG (well, someone ellse does,
but, again, I wonât name names just settle scorees!).
b (Banging the Drum just not Slowly)
From: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.comErnie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual”
games today, thanks to everyone being quick to
create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly
close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big
team of players together who are willing to put
in the fairly high level of effort needed to run
a truly effective grudge team - and with no
Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted,
competent grudge team where everyone is that
committed, and they go up against a team that
someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked
together before as a grudge team and has some
players unable or unwilling to put in that
effort, the outcome is practically preordained.
And while that may be fun for the well-oiled
machine that wants to prove itself invincible,
it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful
grudge teams basically won consistently enough
that they weeded out other teams that might
eventually have become viable grudge teams,
basically succeeding too well and getting to the
point where most players who were not in the
“elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650
tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy
in grudge games either - found it a nice
challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an
anacronism - I organized it, with numerous
special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of
operation special game - before that there had
been a long drought of gunboat games there.
Almost all FA games have been individuals and
small teams, and my experience has been some
games get up to near grudge game levels if
cooperation, while others do not, and
admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a
game, but it can also be used to try to
rebalance a game if one one side starts beating
the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is
awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I
have worked with in the past have moved on, some
players don’t play any more, others are playing
other games, and I personally would rather spend
the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge
game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age
anyway, I love having each game be a new world
rather than the same old same old. My last
grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age
prior to the MEGames revision of the startup
rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions,
two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left
open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are
supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors
anyways, you might want to allow each player to
play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12
players, without requiring both teams have the
same number of players. Folks might be able to
get a team together of folks willing to put in
that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
[mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
Iâm enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment,
but 1650 is still the Happy Place. Iâd be
interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole
games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor
overcorrection for the time-limited and
diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member . but well . umm ).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of
MEPBM. If you canât find 11 (how about 5 and
each take 2 nations) people you want to actually
communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I
know feels the same way, but I wonât name
names donât want to feed thhe animals).
Come on folks form up a grudge team and
advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names .
b
From: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.comME Games
Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mailto:mepbmlist@yahoogroups.commepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.comhttp://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.comhttp://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website:
<http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.comhttp://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email:
<mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com?mailto:me@middleearthgames.com>me@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.comhttp://www.yahoogroups.com
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Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: http://www.middleearthgames.comwww.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<*> Your email settings:
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Where is you local Luddite community?
I always like to drop in and visit the Clan when I’m able…
b
···
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 1:35 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
LOL Yes, I have AOL for my email, never bothered to change, but this is sent from my tablet - my one concession to modern technology, in which I have a 4G data per month plan - I don’t own a cell phone, my desktop computer at home no longer connects to the web (I use the computer at the public library though) and my old analog TV is just used for VHS and DVS playing, no cable, no DirectTV, no FIOS, nothing. I have a hard-wired land line phone.
Been playing since game 3 of 1650, the first non-playtest game run by GSI, which I won as the Fire King on a game turn in the low 70s when my army of over 12k troops (about 2/3s of which were conjured hordes) overran the main army of the Dwarves, last holdout of the Free Peoples, killing several great characters. I collected many starting capitals into my emoire, from the Noldo in the far NW to the Easterlings in the far SE. I know the Long Rider was still in at the end, and I think the Dark Lieutenants were as well, but nobody else. The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
Anyway, I was hooked, been playing almost continuously since… - E3
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
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···
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Sep 5, 2017 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Where is you local Luddite community?
I always like to drop in and visit the Clan when I’m able…
b
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 1:35 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
LOL Yes, I have AOL for my email, never bothered to change, but this is sent from my tablet - my one concession to modern technology, in which I have a 4G data per month plan - I don’t own a cell phone, my desktop computer at home no longer connects to the web (I use the computer at the public library though) and my old analog TV is just used for VHS and DVS playing, no cable, no DirectTV, no FIOS, nothing. I have a hard-wired land line phone.
Been playing since game 3 of 1650, the first non-playtest game run by GSI, which I won as the Fire King on a game turn in the low 70s when my army of over 12k troops (about 2/3s of which were conjured hordes) overran the main army of the Dwarves, last holdout of the Free Peoples, killing several great characters. I collected many starting capitals into my emoire, from the Noldo in the far NW to the Easterlings in the far SE. I know the Long Rider was still in at the end, and I think the Dark Lieutenants were as well, but nobody else. The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
Anyway, I was hooked, been playing almost continuously since… - E3
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mepbmlist-digest@yahoogroups.com
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mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales,
everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
<<
Ernie, you made me think of this game a “few” years ago…this was turn 90-something.
Drew
···
From: “Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]” mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
LOL Yes, I have AOL for my email, never bothered to change, but this is sent from my tablet - my one concession to modern technology, in which I have a 4G data per month plan - I don’t own a cell phone, my desktop computer at home no longer connects to the web (I use the computer at the public library though) and my old analog TV is just used for VHS and DVS playing, no cable, no DirectTV, no FIOS, nothing. I have a hard-wired land line phone.
Been playing since game 3 of 1650, the first non-playtest game run by GSI, which I won as the Fire King on a game turn in the low 70s when my army of over 12k troops (about 2/3s of which were conjured hordes) overran the main army of the Dwarves, last holdout of the Free Peoples, killing several great characters. I collected many starting capitals into my emoire, from the Noldo in the far NW to the Easterlings in the far SE. I know the Long Rider was still in at the end, and I think the Dark Lieutenants were as well, but nobody else. The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
Anyway, I was hooked, been playing almost continuously since… - E3
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
Middle Earth Games Ltd
Website: <http://www.middleearthgames.com>www.middleearthgames.com
Email: mailto:me@middleearthgames.comme@middleearthgames.com
Post: UK: 340 North Road, Cardiff CF14 3BP UK
Telephone: Phone Times: 10am-6:30pm UK Time (BST); 5am-1.30 (EST)
UK: 029 2091 3359 (029 2062 5665 can be used if main engaged)
(Dial 011 44 29 2091 3359 if in the US)
Posted by: ME Games Ltd me@middleearthgames.com
Middle Earth PBM - hit reply to send to everyone
To Unsubscribe: http://www.yahoogroups.com
Website: http://www.MiddleEarthGames.com
Yahoo Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mepbmlist/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mepbmlist-digest@yahoogroups.com
mepbmlist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
mepbmlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
Finally! Another person who understands chimes in! [Ernie, you count too. Just to clarify.]
Still want another shot at the Convicts? Or were you not on that team?? USAWC1.
We owe it to the Rev… I’m sure you’d stand in his place with honor if you weren’t on originally.
How’s your bro, by the way?
b
···
From: Drukarzun drukarzun@yahoo.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 4:26 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
<<
Ernie, you made me think of this game a “few” years ago…this was turn 90-something.
Drew
From: “Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]” mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
LOL Yes, I have AOL for my email, never bothered to change, but this is sent from my tablet - my one concession to modern technology, in which I have a 4G data per month plan - I don’t own a cell phone, my desktop computer at home no longer connects to the web (I use the computer at the public library though) and my old analog TV is just used for VHS and DVS playing, no cable, no DirectTV, no FIOS, nothing. I have a hard-wired land line phone.
Been playing since game 3 of 1650, the first non-playtest game run by GSI, which I won as the Fire King on a game turn in the low 70s when my army of over 12k troops (about 2/3s of which were conjured hordes) overran the main army of the Dwarves, last holdout of the Free Peoples, killing several great characters. I collected many starting capitals into my emoire, from the Noldo in the far NW to the Easterlings in the far SE. I know the Long Rider was still in at the end, and I think the Dark Lieutenants were as well, but nobody else. The market was through the roof - getting 400k gold per turn from sales, everything had buy/sell prices in double digits except mithril in triple digits, maintenance costs were trivial by comparison…
Anyway, I was hooked, been playing almost continuously since… - E3
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 11:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
PS
Ernie, the “Sent by AOL … Mail” kind of gave you away as a “veteran.”
You can hand edit the “Mobile” into your auto-signature all you want. We live in a post-PhotoShop world.
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:12 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone? [1 Attachment]
Ernie, very well said.
So, basically, crappy teams got the snot beat out of them and quit. Good to know.
Yes, I’m taunting! [Not you, Ernie. I want no piece of that!]
Maybe we could have like an NFL Europe? Yes, I’m taunting the Europeans! En masse!
Remember the good ol’ days of the World Championships? Can we have a do-over on that (nations represented by people of questionable lineage – émigrés to continents to the far southern and eastern hemisphere – not allowed)? Still stinging from that ass-kicking by the Convi… err… Aussies. I owe one to ‘em for RKG (well, someone else does, but, again, I won’t name names – just settle scores!).
b (Banging the Drum… just not Slowly)
From: Ernie DrakaraGM@aol.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 6:03 PM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Counterpoint - many, if not most “individual” games today, thanks to everyone being quick to create groups and share pdfs etc., are fairly close to grudge games. It is hard to get a big team of players together who are willing to put in the fairly high level of effort needed to run a truly effective grudge team - and with no Neutrals involved, if you have a devoted, competent grudge team where everyone is that committed, and they go up against a team that someone cobbled together that hasn’t worked together before as a grudge team and has some players unable or unwilling to put in that effort, the outcome is practically preordained. And while that may be fun for the well-oiled machine that wants to prove itself invincible, it is not much fun to be the opposition.
So in my opinion, a small number of successful grudge teams basically won consistently enough that they weeded out other teams that might eventually have become viable grudge teams, basically succeeding too well and getting to the point where most players who were not in the “elite machine teams” no longer wanted to even consider grudge games.
Meanwhile, for those wishing to hone their 1650 tactical skills - because there is no diplomacy in grudge games either - found it a nice challenge to get into a 2 or 3 nation gunboat game.
Over in the FA column, the gunboat game is an anacronism - I organized it, with numerous special rules, as a three-sided, 3 theatres of operation special game - before that there had been a long drought of gunboat games there. Almost all FA games have been individuals and small teams, and my experience has been some games get up to near grudge game levels if cooperation, while others do not, and admittedly, the Neutral presence can unbalance a game, but it can also be used to try to rebalance a game if one one side starts beating the other too badly. I am in such a game now.
Anyway, I agree that a good grudge team is awesome to work with. But the two grudge teams I have worked with in the past have moved on, some players don’t play any more, others are playing other games, and I personally would rather spend the effort I’d have had to put into a grudge game into two regular games. I prefer 4th Age anyway, I love having each game be a new world rather than the same old same old. My last grudge games, years ago, were actually 4th Age prior to the MEGames revision of the startup rules, we had a serpentine draft for regions, two teams of 12, with the unpicked region left open for later expansion into, it worked out well.
One final thought, since grudge teams are supposed to be highly cooperative endeavors anyways, you might want to allow each player to play up to two nations, allow teams of 6-12 players, without requiring both teams have the same number of players. Folks might be able to get a team together of folks willing to put in that extra effort without needing to find 12…
Ernie III, playing since forever…
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net [mepbmlist] mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
To: mepbmlist mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 04:02 PM
Subject: RE: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Thanks Clint! Interesting stuff.
I’m enjoying my first KS Grudge at the moment, but 1650 is still the Happy Place. I’d be interested to see the scenario-by-scenario split.
Sad to see the decline of 2950. 2 whole games! SMH I had hoped GB would be a minor overcorrection for the time-limited and diplomacy-challenged. The law of Unintended Consequence rears its ugly head.
All of the above notwithstanding, I meant to convey:
A CALL TO ARMS AMONG THE PLAYER COMMUNITY!
(not to discount you as a playing member…. but… well…. umm…).
PEOPLE, THIS IS A TEAM GAME!!!
Gunboat is antithetical. Go play a first-person shooter.
Grudge Games are the highest and best form of MEPBM. If you can’t find 11 (how about 5 and each take 2 nations) people you want to actually communicate and coordinate with, fully, WTF has happened?
I see a lot of KS in my future (someone else I know feels the same way, but I won’t name names – don’t want to feed the animals).
Come on folks – form up a grudge team and advertise! We (royal) will be ready to kick ass and take names….
b
From: ME Games Ltd me@MiddleEarthGames.com [mepbmlist]
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:51 AM
To: mepbmlist@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mepbmlist] Where Have All The Grudge Games Gone?
Hi
Here’s some information Ben, most 1650 games are Gunboat, most KS
games are Grudge (easier to co-ordinate 7 or less players than
12!) FAS has no Grudge games, can’t remember the last time one run
either. So Grudge hasn’t gone, it’s moved onto KS games mostly with
some 1/4 of 1650 still Grudge games.
Total 1650 2950 FAS KS
Individual 33% 36% 50% 67% 22%
GB 38% 55% 50% 33% 22%
Grudge 23% 9% 0% 0% 56%
Clint
At 14:20 04/09/2017, you wrote:
Apologies to Pete Seeger (for ironic twist, if nothing else).
Used to be, one could find a proper (grudge) game quickly and
easily. Seems to be a much smaller market these days…
Have things changed that much in six years?
b (All Comers Welcome)
Posted by: Benjamin Shushan bshushan@earthlink.net
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