Ed,
i didn’t explain myself well apparently. By “trade caravans” I do not mean orders 947,948. Rather I mean the “market” as described in the turn sheets under title “Market Prices” with line headings:
Market Units available
pruchase at market price/unit
sell to market price/unit
I think the “Market” in MEPBM is modeled by traders who buy/sell the goods as intermediaries between the nation states. Now that you bring it up, perhaps commodity in transit via the 947/948 orders should be considered as a part of the market, but I suspect not, as that product is not generally available. It is committed.
It is the general market (which I called trade caravans in the prior post, but which I now see as a confusing lable) where the “supply” is that matters in supply & demand theory. I don’t personally believe 947/948 orders have a whit to do with it. That said, it’s software, and they very well could…
David, I knew what you were trying to say. I was just letting my speculation run wild. Will, I guess, be impossible to test. Unlikely to convince, say, five other guys to speculate in that fashion.
I have utilized market manipulation in most of my games… I have actaully found that one nation well built at the start can alone buy and entire comidity then 948 to each his teamates for a 20k natsells… This option is more easily availble to the free… The effect of these actions have been also reduced lately , I know from exterience here from attempts in the last 6 months… So once again I still believe the FP have the early advantage and can keep that advantage through good teamplay…
The Fact still remains FP have a huge Tax base advantage and DS have huge deficits By the FP taking advantage of this they will bring that recent winning percentage back to 50/50.
Actually, Dave, at this point I feel compelled to wonder if maybe I didn’t ask my question correctly. I would like to know what sets the market sell/buy limit. Is it programmed into the game (i.e. t1-5:20k, t6-10:25k, etc), or is it determined by market fluxuations? If it is determined by the market, then maybe it is a tool that might be used to counteract the DS gold stockpile.
I have to say, Brad, that I do and don’t agree with you. While the possibility exists that such tactics might become mapped into the standard play of the game, I don’t really see it as happening all that often outside of grudge games. It requires a level of cooperation that doesn’t usually happen to the random teams thrown together for the standard 1650.
Well, at least it looks too difficult to get “ordinary” people to do the FP work…but again, it takes little effort (both order wise and marketting…) to pull off the gold transfer for the DS. FP stair climbers vs DS elevator riders again. Nothing here takes away from that simple metaphor.
I totally aggree here… Until the Fp realize they cannot plan effectively their first turns moves and how thier actions effects the entire team they will remain on the staircase while the Ds us the elevator.
Wade, it is not based upon the turn in the game. we sold far more on T2 per nation in games using the “send gold to banker nation” method, than is possible in a normal game without a hyper market. Remember PoWeR 16? We had market limits upwards of 28k on T2… That’s way more than a “normal” game on T2… And PoWeR 16 isn’t the only game this has been done in.
Certainly in regards to these “market limits” there appear to be strong normalizing tendancies - but that’s likely coincidence as opposed to programming - most Markets and overall economies inevitably look very much the same game from game. The same nations need money, the same guys have this much and send it, the same old sells are made/tried, the same old mount buys are made/tried, etc. Prices are about X and Reserves are generally within a similar range. So we see “limits”.
Oh, and I recall selling for over 30,000 in G16 at one point, didn’t we…?
Brad,
yes definitely. >30k within the first 15 turns. And the DS didn’t pump up the banker nation much after the first turn, so the market stayed high after the banker nation had 200k in treasury.
By market being “high”, i mean:
high buy/sell prices for all but food (which was 3/1 or 3/2 depending on the turn)
Brad, you’re just grumpy because you were playing SG… <wink>
Actually, I do agree with your elevator vs. stairs analogy. ME Games should investigate this and fix the economy algorithm methinks… Now, before Ed Mills jumps all over me for speaking heresy, I think there is a big challenge to “fixing” the economy algorithm. That is: how to fix it? I can easily imagine attempts to fix it could result in a more broken economy algorithm…
Care must be taken…
Now David, I have never objected to either you or anyone else speaking their opinion.
It is the “nose of the camel”. Once the camel gets his nose in the tent, the rest of his body soon follows. Harley, in its anxiety to please the paying customers will, in my considered observations, turn chess into checkers.
you and I agree Ed regarding not letting the camel in the tent. Chess is far superior to checkers. Ever play 1870 or any of the 18xx Railroad board games? Now those games are truly on-par with chess. We play them all the time and they’re always different than prior game instances. And if you don’t think way ahead, you’ll get crushed by your own misteps or the moves of others. I highly recommend them. But you have to have serious gamer friends as it takes a good solid 6 hours of deep thinking gameplay to play one.
But we do want MEPBM to have a growing and thriving player community, and if it comes to be accepted belief that the DS are going to win, this will diminish interest. Sometimes changes are necessary to keep as complex a system as is MEPBM vibrant and alive, when an exploit of the complex system is discovered. I think this is such a time.
Played the old Avalon Hill RR board game and it was great. Never tried the 18xx games.
Kin Strife may shed some light on Harley creativity. I don’t play 1000, so I am ignorant of the evolutions at work there. As for the other two, Harley has done nothing to make the game more challenging. Their accretions, erosions and services have diminished the game, in my oft expressed view. At heart, the Harrley crew are honorable English Gentlemen. Things like Junta or Kingmaker is distasteful to them. They certainly could not design a game called “Machiavelli”. In the end, they view this as a fantasy game that can be legitimately warped into anything. Having never been in a knife fight they don’t know how to design a knife fight game.
Interesting observations Ed… You seem to be attacking us again…
We have no plans to change 1650 at present. We might put forward variants to the game format as player numbers dictate. 1000 - there’s been major positive feedback for the format so we’re content that our creativity (in line with player feedback) is decent enough here. (Check out the poll for further information - clearly you can’t please all of the players all of the time but I think we’ve added to the game there and GB is very popular at present).
Clint’s gaming credentials (tongue in cheek): Played Junta and Kingmaker a lot [TJ is the best at Kingmaker out of our play group] - Junta has in the rules that before playing you should say “it’s only a game, it’s only a game, it’s only a game before everyone gets down to stabbing each other”. Maybe a lesson to be learned there methinks?
Kremlin is a similar (and IMO a better version of the same sort of game) - but they’re all a bit dated IMO - there are some excellent board games out there at present Perto Rico is still my favourite I think, although Carcassonne is a great 2 player game if played over a few games.
Also played competitive chess in my time (our team won the Welsh - not English - dw i nid yn Saesneg! champs and I played for my county) and think it a much superior game to checkers every day of the week so not sure why you think I’d want to move in that direction. Try the Dune boardgame - no dice-rolls (well one for the storm but that has minor impact relatively) it’s great and all the Houses have different strengths and weaknesses and it’s how alliances are made and broken over the 10-15 turns of the game that make the game IMO as well as many other interesting factors.
Played a lot of Railways rivals. We’re well into Shadowfist CCG and play it a lot - lots of variability from game to game with deck design each game an integral part of the procedings and very socialable (just finished for tonight as we’re off to role-play for the entirety of Saturday in a Feng Shui campaign run by Sam based on SFist). Sfist: Sam’s the 3 player UK champ (I came 2nd), I’m the 4 player UK champ (TJ in our GM team placed in the final) so I’m content that we have a vague clue as to what we’re doing when it comes to games, the strengths, the weaknesses, what makes a good game and what doesn’t and how to fit different styles of player’s games (eg the 3 scenarios for ME). I think I’m a decent ME player as well (I’d say 1650 is my strongest game, 1000 my weakest).
Done a few knife fights in my time but not with any attempt to kill (or wound) I must admit (done a fair bit of martial arts in my time, Aikido, Shoto-kai, Shoto-kan) - though not sure what that would have to do with a game… there’s cut-throat and then there’s cut-throat…
I’ve finished the 2950 and 1000 got the 1650 to collate and then we can have a look at the win/loss ratios for the games.
The market limit fluctuates based upon available gold in the game with which to buy product.
I played in one very long game (80+ turns) where the market limit was around 200,000 or so, food sold for 48, etc. Of course, everyone had about 4 million gold in reserve, etc.
You seem to be attacking us again… 